Raw Feeders??

[Scythe]

I personally would love to feed my cat raw, however, no matter how much I read up on it, I can't seem to understand how to do it properly. LOL I feel like I would need someone to hold my hand until it fell into routine and I understood it.

In the meantime, my cat just gets wellness canned food, and when I'm out for the day or wont be home during 'food timez' I let my grandfather give her a small bowl of now! kibble since I don't trust him to feed the cat wet food properly, LOL.

 

[Sorraia]

I personally would love to feed my cat raw, however, no matter how much I read up on it, I can't seem to understand how to do it properly. LOL I feel like I would need someone to hold my hand until it fell into routine and I understood it.

In the meantime, my cat just gets wellness canned food, and when I'm out for the day or wont be home during 'food timez' I let my grandfather give her a small bowl of now! kibble since I don't trust him to feed the cat wet food properly, LOL.

It can be very overwhelming, especially with all the different diet options. Some require supplementation, others don't. I personally went at it from the stance of a biologist: This is how the animals are physiologically built and biologically adapted, this is what they are meant to eat if they were living in a "natural" environment, so what is the best way for me to imitate that in a domestic setting? My answer was the prey model diet.

 

[littledevils]

There's so much info out there for raw fed dogs but not so much for raw fed cats. There's a good yahoo group and I recently came across this site which is also great:

http://www.RawFedKitty.org

One thing that confuses a lot of people and that seems like a lot of work is that they don't need to have all the %s every single day. So you don't have to measure amounts daily. Key is that there is a balance there over time e.g. you don't have to feed a % of RMBs, organs etc every day. You certainly can but it can make it a lot of work and complicated. It is ok to feed RMB one day and organ meat the next day etc.

IMO as long as you feed a large variety of food and follow the recommended % somewhat, you have a well balanced diet and it is what they were meant to eat.

I'm not sure what happened to us where we lost any sort of basic sense about nutrition and now only trust what comes out of a bag. Same thing day in day out and how many recalls have there been in the past few years even with good kibble? After so many years of feeding raw, feeding kibble feels completely unnatural. I don't see what I'm feeding, I have no connection to the food. When I feed raw, I know the farm the meat came from. And veggies the few times I do feed veggies. You can't get closer to your food than that. To be honest I also pity the animals that have to eat the same thing day in day out. Kinda like us eating same cereal for breakfast, lunch, dinner, snacks for the rest of your life. I'd be bored out of my mind. Charlie used to often skip meals when he was on kibble. It wasn't unheard that he wouldn't eat for a day or two. He hasn't missed a single meal since he's been on raw, he just loves it. I also find that the recreational bones are like a punching bag for dogs.

 

[Sorraia]

There's so much info out there for raw fed dogs but not so much for raw fed cats. There's a good yahoo group and I recently came across this site which is also great:

http://www.RawFedKitty.org

One thing that confuses a lot of people and that seems like a lot of work is that they don't need to have all the %s every single day. So you don't have to measure amounts daily. Key is that there is a balance there over time e.g. you don't have to feed a % of RMBs, organs etc every day. You certainly can but it can make it a lot of work and complicated. It is ok to feed RMB one day and organ meat the next day etc.

IMO as long as you feed a large variety of food and follow the recommended % somewhat, you have a well balanced diet and it is what they were meant to eat.

Agree with all of the above. Also as we get used to how our animals are supposed to look and act, we can make adjustments as necessary. My dogs need slightly higher than the recommended percentage of bone, otherwise they get gassy and their stools too loose. It's all about learning what "normal" and "healthy" actually look like, and finding the balance to achieve that.

I'm not sure what happened to us where we lost any sort of basic sense about nutrition and now only trust what comes out of a bag. Same thing day in day out and how many recalls have there been in the past few years even with good kibble? After so many years of feeding raw, feeding kibble feels completely unnatural. I don't see what I'm feeding, I have no connection to the food. When I feed raw, I know the farm the meat came from. And veggies the few times I do feed veggies. You can't get closer to your food than that. To be honest I also pity the animals that have to eat the same thing day in day out. Kinda like us eating same cereal for breakfast, lunch, dinner, snacks for the rest of your life. I'd be bored out of my mind. Charlie used to often skip meals when he was on kibble. It wasn't unheard that he wouldn't eat for a day or two. He hasn't missed a single meal since he's been on raw, he just loves it. I also find that the recreational bones are like a punching bag for dogs.

My personal opinions on this is that people have come to trust their governing bodies too much, basically given up their ability to think critically (this is not meant to offend anyone personally, though I'm sure some will take it that way). It's just easier... after all with organizations like the FDA (and whatever equivalent is in Canada), why should we have to think about what we are putting in our bodies, or our pets' bodies? If it wasn't "safe" it wouldn't be approved, right? BUT... when you really examine the system, really look at how that approval process occurs, really understand the biological being and processes, you start to see things that become actually very frightening. (As a biologist, I've had to learn how to do this kind of examination. Although I am not a medical professional, I do have a personal interest in the medical sciences, and took several pre-med classes while getting my biology degree, just to further broaden my knowledge base. The more you learn, the "scarier" your world can become in some ways! lol) One doesn't need to look too far for examples either: How many medications for HUMAN use (I emphasize human use, because approval for humans is supposed to be more rigorous than that for animals) have been pulled over the years because subsequent studies performed after their approval found them to actually be unsafe? How many of those pulled medications have very dangerous side affects that are the reason they were pulled? How many lawsuits are on the table at any given period in time because of the harmful, even fatal, affects of some pharmaceutical drugs? If pharmaceuticals are experiencing these kinds of issues, it is NO surprise our food (and the food of our pets) would experience similar, or worse problems!

These are the kinds of issues why I would like to raise my own food one day, and be self sufficient. I am not in the position to be able to do so for everything, just yet, but I am working my way up. Once I build my garden beds I can grow all my own vegetables, and once I get my fruit trees established I can grow many of my own fruits (and others I can purchase locally). With the near year-round growing season I have in my area, growing produce is not an issue. I am getting set up to produce my own eggs, just waiting for the pullets to mature enough to start laying (only a couple months to go, IF they lay in the winter, since they may not I might need to wait until next spring). Eventually I plan to buy a plot of land to raise my own (and my pets') meat. By being self-sufficient I can know exactly what is going into my food, AND what waste I am contributing to the environment. Having that amount of control, I can try to eliminate unnecessary waste too.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I find these kinds of issues absolutely fascinating.

 

[littledevils]

I'm with you on this, Sorraia.

I would love to be self sufficient as well unfortunately I can't afford a house in this city, all I have is a 20 x 6 ft shady patio BUT even now I do grow veggies and herbs, even now in October here in Vancouver. I use my own bunnies' poops as fertilizer as well and in turn they also get home grown veggies and herbs. It's not much but it is something. I'm currently on a waiting list to get a plot at the community garden and my next door neighbor will let me some of his yard for veggies. Because my patio is always in the shade I'm rather limited what veggies concern but I'm going to expand my mint production because it turned out to be a lot more versatile than "bunny food" and "tea". I made cake, ice cream, cooked lamb etc. and I did not nearly have enough for all the things I discovered.


We don't buy a lot of processed food but make most ourselves... Yesterday I made croissants. From scratch. Never made laminated dough before but turns out it's way easier than it looks like and the results were great. I make our pizza dough. I've even started making my own cheese, so far I've made paneer, ricotta and mozzarella. Surprisingly easy too, so yummy and way cheaper as well. Last week's pizza consisted of home made pizza dough with fresh home made mozzarella, home made tomato sauce and home grown basil and it was just incredible.

So yes, I totally get it. If I had a yard, I'd also have chicken. We're allowed 4 hens here in the city. I would have enough room on my patio BUT the coop has to be at least 8 feet away from any window and that's not going to happen. I'm working on my neighbor.. Hinting I'd do all the work/pay all the cost and he'd get half of the eggs. So far he just thinks I'm crazy hahaha. The whey of my cheese production is going to friends who have chickens though.

 

[jorats]

I just want to add that my sister's dog Roxie is 9 years old and a couple of years ago we saw with X-rays, she has hip displasia in both hips, and her spine is full of arthritis. She had stopped moving and enjoying life. She was put on the vet motility diet and that girl is running and jumping and playing with no issues. She looks years younger. She's thriving on her kibble. And her teeth are totally clean, she never had a dental, nor needed one, our vet is actually quite impressed with Roxie. She's a bigger dog, about 75 lbs, we are quite pleased with the results.
Also, my Cally cat is 18 years old, 2 years ago she was in complete renal failure. With daily subq we got her back to normal. She's a little overweight but she runs, she plays, she climbs, she's 18!...all on a kibble.
So honestly, I don't know if we can say that it's the raw diet that changed your pet or it could just be that the particular kibble wasn't cutting it for your pet's system.
I really don't think we can say that kibble won't allow your pet to thrive when clearly, with some animals it does. I've had 3 old cats, 1 had to be pts early this year due to a tumour in her abdomen but the other two are doing great, they will be 19 in February.

 

[Sorraia]

I really don't think we can say that kibble won't allow your pet to thrive when clearly, with some animals it does. I've had 3 old cats, 1 had to be pts early this year due to a tumour in her abdomen but the other two are doing great, they will be 19 in February.

I disagree. The kibble my pets were on prior to the switch was some of the best on the market: grain free, additive free, and all that jazz. Unless it is being suggested that low quality kibble full of grain and additives is better for animals (which it really is NOT).... it was NOT just the type of kibble. Considering the fact my dog WAS experiencing allergies even on a grain free kibble, which then "magically" disappeared after switching to raw (even though she was still being exposed to the same protein sources - meaning it was NOT the meats she was having allergies to), also means something to me about kibble vs. raw.

Honestly, kibble is equivalent to cereal. We know that eating cereal day in and day out may provide us with all the nutrients we need (because let's face it, a lot of cereals ARE fortified to be "complete"), but that doesn't mean it is a healthy thing to do so. When it comes down to the real nitty gritty, a whole, natural foods diet is ALWAYS going to be better than a highly processed diet. Our bodies are NOT designed or made to consume high amounts of processed foods, nor are the bodies of our pets. A whole, natural foods diet is what we were meant to eat. That isn't about opinion, it is about biology. Domestication does not change how a body works either. Our bodies, and the bodies of our pets, are still designed exactly the way they were before they were domesticated, before we started living sedentary lifestyles in big cities. A raw diet for dogs and cats is biologically appropriate, and as a biologically appropriate diet, is always going to be healthier than a highly processed diet full of additives and artificially synthesized nutrients.

 

[jorats]

Well, it sure is working for my pets. Unless I see an issue, I'm sticking with the kibble for now. I'm not entirely sold on raw... I've read a few things against it and that has me staying away.
What about cooking it for them? Would that be ok?

 

[Bamboo]

What about cooking it for them? Would that be ok?

http://www.urbanwolf.cc/ Has anybody had any experience with Urban Wolf? That might be something to look into if you want to try transitioning into raw. You can either cook it, or mix it in and feed it raw. I like the idea but I've never actually tried it myself...

 

[Dahlas]

I really believe in raw feeding....but it has to be done properly. I feed kibble right now...but someday may return to raw feeding.....the only thing I still do is give my dogs meaty lamb bones a few times a week for chewing....chicken feet as treats and Sunday they get chicken necks....
Raw bones....lamb, beef etc...are so much better for the dogs to chew and it cleans their teeth and keeps poops small and not so smelly.....and the dogs LOVE them.

 

[Moon]

I've read a few things against it and that has me staying away.

You can find as much literature against kibble as you can against raw. But, really, if it's not something that someone is comfortable doing without the guidance of their vet or a veterinary nutritionist, then they shouldn't. There are so many different options for raw feeding and it absolutely can be unsafe if done incorrectly. But you really have to remember that vets are not given exemplary dietary training, what they learn is information supplied by the food companies. So most vets that don't have specific dietary leanings nor dabble with holistic options will not be in favour of it and you have to take that advice with a grain of salt. Though, all the vets I have worked with personally have been comfortable with the diet I fed when I presented it to them

You do absolutely hear about dogs that don't take to the raw diet well, or they don't take to many versions of it. Sometimes they can only handle a certain feeding philosophy. Or they do better on a home made cooked diet. My brother in law's health problems mean he can't eat the stuff that is healthy for most of us - whole grains, quinoa, and many vegetables and fruits cause major, life threatening issues for him. His diet consists largely of meat and deep fried foods. I look at the food he eats and my cholesterol jumps. Just as no diet will work for absolutely every person, no single diet will work for absolutely every dog.

That said, veterinary diets are not good quality. They're just not. Jo, Roxie would probably do just as well on a high quality kibble supplemented with raw chicken feet a few times a week (one of the highest natural sources of glucosamine and chondroitin available). Chicken feet are dirt cheap and most dogs love them. I can get them for a dollar a bag in Markham - a bag is like, 20 feet.

 

[jorats]

Where can you get chicken feet? a grocery store?
Roxie used to be on Orijen before she was switched over but at that time she needed weekly shots for pain. Then she was put on the Motility diet and she's like a young dog again.
But my sister really hates buying the Motility diet, not because it's super expensive but because she feels like she's feeding crap to her dog. I'll let her know about the chicken feet.

 

[Moon]

Where can you get chicken feet? a grocery store?
Roxie used to be on Orijen before she was switched over but at that time she needed weekly shots for pain. Then she was put on the Motility diet and she's like a young dog again.
But my sister really hates buying the Motility diet, not because it's super expensive but because she feels like she's feeding crap to her dog. I'll let her know about the chicken feet.

I get them at the asian market, but grocery stores that cater to um... international tastes could have them. Otherwise you could talk to a butcher shop about saving them for you if they don't usually sell them.

I am trying to find the site where I read up on the chicken feet... it was a good link. I'll post it if I can find it again.

 

[jorats]

Ugh, might be a problem finding in my smallish city.

 

[Bamboo]

I can see both sides of this one. I'm not sure what to think though...it seems to me that whether or not the actual nutritional requirement are met should be the main concern. The way I see it raw is the most natural way to get this nutrition. I do feel that a good kibble can do the job as well ('good kibble' being a very relative term -there are so many different varieties and every dog is has unique nutrition 'quirks') I feel like a dog can do very well on a good kibble (as a staple but still being supplemented for variety etc.)

On the other hand, I do know that kibble was (is?) more for the owner's then the dogs -it's cheap (compared to raw), convenient and there's no "eww! body parts!" factor. I feel like kibble has become better, in terms of canine nutrition but I may be wrong. I too have a dog on a kibble based diet and I have had great results -no dental issues, no health issues (aside from the eye infection she had from the shelter when I first adopted her) and at almost 10 years old, people tell me she looks and acts like a 3 year old.

On the other other hand (lol) if I had a dime for every time I've heard "my fish does great on flakes" "my bird\rat\hamster does great on seeds" or "my dog does great on Ol'Roy" I would be very, very rich. Those people probably truly believe that they are doing good by their animals...without sounding arrogant I feel like I'm taking good care or my guys but I can't help but wonder if I could be doing better. Would they do better on raw? Shouldn't I do everything I can to ensure they're not just "doing fine" but doing as well as they possibly can? And some people don't necessarily have the time to go through the motions to make sure a raw diet is safe and complete...but, then one could argue that if you can't do what needs to be done, then maybe they shouldn't have the animal. Which is true...however, the question of whether raw is what needs to be done or not needs to be answered IMO.

But, there are some concerns I have with raw. I do wonder about bacteria -not so much in the sense of making my animals sick but in terms of if, say, my dog was chewing in a meaty bone or chicken frame or something and was holding it with her paws, like they do, and then walked around the house...is that not going to spread bacteria all over the place? I know people say "You feed the messy things outside" but what about in the winter? It's not uncommon for it to go days or weeks at -30 and colder where I am...on days like these, Jade doesn't even want to go outside for a minute and a half to pee. Even if that wasn't the case, I sure wouldn't make her sit in the yard to eat part of her meal. And what about the cat?

I know there are probably easy answers to things like this but like I said, I'm not totally sold on the 'raw is the answer to all problems' mindset. I admit I have not looked to deeply into it recently but I had trouble finding many answers that didn't originate from a producer of a raw diet. As corporate as kibble companies are, raw companies are trying to push their products too.

And something that really bothers me is that, almost inevitably, when I talk to people about maybe switching to raw, people will say "You really should! After all, you have a German Shepherd and they're closer to wolves then most other dogs so she needs raw even more then most dogs." I'm sorry but that is simply not the way it works...I don't know where people get the idea that different breeds = different species. Be it the urban legend that pit bulls have a mechanism in their jaws that allow them to 'lock' or people claiming that their GSDs, Huskies or Malamutes are some sort of primeval 'missing link' between dogs and wolves, that sort of talk really irritates me because it's simply not true. No matter how different they may seem they're all canis familiaris. Not to mention that German Shepherd Dogs are actually a relatively new breed, something like 200 years old. A far cry from some ancient connection to wolves...

Anyways, the point of that mini rant was that it's just little things like that that have prevented me from switching to raw. I know it's a pet peeve and therefore I'm likely blowing it out of proportion but, to me, things like that show a lack of knowledge with a hint of "pop science" to cover it up and sell their product. This is where the seeds of doubt in my mind come from...

Make no mistake, I'm not against raw and I have a very open mind...I'm just thinking out loud. This was just my train of thought as I stared out the bus window, listening to my music so it probably doesn't make much sense lol!

 

[jorats]

I never thought to talk to my son's girlfriend about this. She's got a BA in Biology and has worked with dogs. Once when Gypsy got sick, she told me it was probably the bone I bought from the "smoked meat" place, can't remember the name. She told me that those things shouldn't last longer than a few hours or you get bacteria and some dogs are affected by it.

 

[Moon]

I never thought to talk to my son's girlfriend about this. She's got a BA in Biology and has worked with dogs. Once when Gypsy got sick, she told me it was probably the bone I bought from the "smoked meat" place, can't remember the name. She told me that those things shouldn't last longer than a few hours or you get bacteria and some dogs are affected by it.

Every single time I have been told first hand about a dog having a problem with a bone, it has been one of the smoked bones. These are the ones people hold on to for way too long, and they become rock hard and ruin teeth, or a dog swallows a large piece and obstructs or perforates the bowel, or it upsets their tummies due to added smoke flavour or bacterial contamination.

Bamboo, as for the weather concern, in severely cold weather like that, people will often do more tripe meals, fish based meals, or meat with the bone ground in. All stuff that can be eaten in a dish. One time when I felt it was too cold for me to put Tungsten out but I only had a bone meal handy for him, I put him in my bath tub to eat. Then I wiped off his feet and disinfected the tub.

 

[jorats]

Oh it never dawned on me about the "dirtiness" of feeding raw. I live in a 3rd floor upstairs apartment... feeding my dogs outside is not an option. Also, how would you go about disinfecting your dog's paws or even mouth hairs? Jasper has quite a lot. Wiping it up doesn't disinfect...in fact, you can only disinfect something by using a "special" cleaner and leaving the product on for 10 to 15 minutes. Cleaners sold in retail does not do the trick (depending on the bacteria) unless you are using bleach. I can't start using bleach, it's a nasty product for all living things.
I'd like to hear how the others deal with that? How do you get around keeping the family and other pets free of possible contamination? I have 3 cats and 2 dogs.
I did see a video once about raw feeding a cat... the cat was given a frozen thawed and skinned rat, on their kitchen floor. That is definitely not sanitary.

 

[Dahlas]

I give my dogs their raw bones in their play room and just mop up the floor afterwards.....or if I had a dog that couldn't eat near another dog I would put them in the large crate I have and just spray it out afterwards...... the place I get my raw bones, chicken feet and chicken necks from also sells ground up raw patties.....looks much like fine hamburger...this could be fed in a dish and just use the meaty bones a few times a week for the dental benefits....
Raw feeding is not for everyone....and I believe you can feed your dog a balanced diet from kibble with great results.....Raw bones for chewing is MUCH better the rawhides or those smoked bones.....they are the ones that cause tummy troubles....My dogs have great coats and teeth, well formed small poop, don't have any allergies and are very active....so I will assume what I am doing is working .....If it ain't broke don't try to fix it is my motto.....

 

[littledevils]

For me the safety of my dog/cat and family starts right at the beginning with the source of meat. I know it comes from a place I trust where the animals are well kept and the meat is handled properly. There's many companies that offer raw and many places that sell meat. Some are great, some are sketchy. Make sure you continue that at home, keep it frozen, thaw in fridge, wash your hands etc.

I feed both ground and whole. Ground obviously they get in their bowls. Whole they eat on a thick towel in the kitchen. When they are done eating I throw the towel in the wash and the floor gets mopped.

I have friends who let their dogs drag their raw bones all over their carpet/couch. While I'm not freaked out one bit about feeding raw, this I would not recommend.

Also for what it's worth, most kibble is contaminated with salmonella also. http://thewholedog.org/wholedognews/?p=549
Those pig ears a lot of people feed? Hello salmonella.

I much rather feed something where I a) know exactly where it's coming from and b) see exactly what's going into him. I find I have far more control what's going into my kids than if I fed kibble.

With all the recalls of pet food in the past few years, I didn't freak out and had to go and check codes and labels and had a pet who refused to eat because his brand was all pulled.

When switching to raw, do your research, read books, sites, talk to people. Also keep in mind that they are individuals so every one can act a bit different to certain things e.g. some tolerate bone well, others get constipated so you might have to change the bone/meat ratio a bit. As they get older they change. I even notice a change between season, in winter I have to up my dog's food intake. The nice thing with raw is that you see changes very fast and can make adjustments fast also. Same goes with supplements. Some people think they can get away with just feeding chicken necks every day, this is not balanced. While I find it easy, there is more to it than that.

re: Raw more expensive than kibble. This used to be very true when I first started to feed raw but not so much anymore. The price of kibble has gone way up. I actually didn't look at kibble for years and then I joined a friend who had to go buy kibble for her dogs and I just about died. Raw is about the same price like the high end kibble you can buy.