jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
Unfortunately, I don't have access to real raw food.littledevils said:
Good to know! Everywhere I read I see: GET HELP NOW, MUST STOP... and so on. I was getting worried.
Raw Feeders??
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littledevils
Well-Known Member
Should probably explain a bit more about the resource guarding
Like Sorraia explained, at that age most dogs mature and are no longer little puppies who get away with everything. They are really starting to establish their roles. Also honeymoon period is over after he's been with you for a while now.
Resource guarding is a normal instinct for many dogs, in some ways it's a survival instinct. It is however not a nice behavior and it could lead to problems so it's something to keep in mind. Resource guarding should never be towards a person.
http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues ... 368-1.html
My guy is a resource guarder. Not towards me anymore but just about anybody else. With people he's not aggressive about it, he e.g. won't drop a ball or bone for them but plays keep away. With dogs he gives very clear warnings when they try to steal something and most dogs get it. I allow that behavior as long as he doesn't escalate. Generally a "be nice" warning from my side is good enough now. I guess that brings up the second part and that is that the dogs should respect you and that you are in charge and control things. Doing NILIF has worked really well for us.
Like Sorraia explained, at that age most dogs mature and are no longer little puppies who get away with everything. They are really starting to establish their roles. Also honeymoon period is over after he's been with you for a while now.
Resource guarding is a normal instinct for many dogs, in some ways it's a survival instinct. It is however not a nice behavior and it could lead to problems so it's something to keep in mind. Resource guarding should never be towards a person.
http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues ... 368-1.html
My guy is a resource guarder. Not towards me anymore but just about anybody else. With people he's not aggressive about it, he e.g. won't drop a ball or bone for them but plays keep away. With dogs he gives very clear warnings when they try to steal something and most dogs get it. I allow that behavior as long as he doesn't escalate. Generally a "be nice" warning from my side is good enough now. I guess that brings up the second part and that is that the dogs should respect you and that you are in charge and control things. Doing NILIF has worked really well for us.
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
I just read up on NILIF and we already do that here. Both dogs must sit or do something before they get anything. They must sit and wait at the door before allowed out. Even during our walks we have sit or wait. What I'm doing with the particular nylabone is allow him to only chew it while I hold it. He totally avoids my hand when I do this and he ends when I say we are done. I don't know why if left alone with it, he get upset.
I do appreciate all the feedback!
I do appreciate all the feedback!
Moon
Well-Known Member
When you hold the bone for him to chew, it is your bone, and he's just allowed to use it. When it is down on the floor, he goes "MINE ALL MINE".
As it was mentioned, some toys are going to be a bigger trigger than others. There were many days at daycare where I could not use tug toys at all because certain dogs became too aroused over them. Other days I could allow tug toys out for shot periods. Nylabones could NEVER be on the floor and I only offered them to dogs who needed special quiet time but were not in time out.
Tungsten is very toy-guardy with some dogs, and with others he shares happily. Or sometimes there's a dog he will share happily with a dog until one particular toy comes out.
As terrible as it might feel to do, maybe you need to reach out and find hunters in your area who can help with your bone supply. Tungsten had the most fun I'd ever seen with half a deer's ribcage one day. And looking around at private butchers, you never know who will be willing to hold on to parts they'd usually cast off. You are not going to find real raw food advertised as raw in your area, but that doesn't mean it's not out there.
Finally, the clicker training thing... he may very well becoming frustrated with the shaping, and you might want to consider doing more luring with him. Maybe he wants to know exactly what you are hoping to get out of him, and not just guessing. He might like the clicker with the pointer attached, shown in this video:
http://www.dog-obedience-training-revie ... trick.html
That was he has an exact point of reference to aim for - the end of the pointer.
Finally, I don't know if you have removed their crates completely, but if so, you may want to re-introduce them. Having shared space with Gypsy will be nice 99% of the time, but if he doesn't have a place where he can chew in peace and absolutely 100% have no one bugging him, he might get grumpy.
As it was mentioned, some toys are going to be a bigger trigger than others. There were many days at daycare where I could not use tug toys at all because certain dogs became too aroused over them. Other days I could allow tug toys out for shot periods. Nylabones could NEVER be on the floor and I only offered them to dogs who needed special quiet time but were not in time out.
Tungsten is very toy-guardy with some dogs, and with others he shares happily. Or sometimes there's a dog he will share happily with a dog until one particular toy comes out.
As terrible as it might feel to do, maybe you need to reach out and find hunters in your area who can help with your bone supply. Tungsten had the most fun I'd ever seen with half a deer's ribcage one day. And looking around at private butchers, you never know who will be willing to hold on to parts they'd usually cast off. You are not going to find real raw food advertised as raw in your area, but that doesn't mean it's not out there.
Finally, the clicker training thing... he may very well becoming frustrated with the shaping, and you might want to consider doing more luring with him. Maybe he wants to know exactly what you are hoping to get out of him, and not just guessing. He might like the clicker with the pointer attached, shown in this video:
http://www.dog-obedience-training-revie ... trick.html
That was he has an exact point of reference to aim for - the end of the pointer.
Finally, I don't know if you have removed their crates completely, but if so, you may want to re-introduce them. Having shared space with Gypsy will be nice 99% of the time, but if he doesn't have a place where he can chew in peace and absolutely 100% have no one bugging him, he might get grumpy.
Sorraia
Well-Known Member
Moon said:
This is a good point! Even if it isn't a place to chew, but just a place to "be". Alley (older of my two dogs) doesn't use her crate any more. She used to, and then something happened (I don't know what) and try as I might she would never use it again. But she does have a bed, and when she's in that bed, Tundra respects it as her space and leaves her alone. Tundra has a crate that she will go to when she wants to be alone, and Alley respects that as her space. Each of my dogs has their own space to go to when they want to just be left alone to rest, relax, recharge, or defuse.
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
Mine now share a pen with each their own bed.
At meal times, Gypsy eats inside the pen while Jasper eats outside the pen. I make sure they have privacy while eating.
I'm taking all your advice and work with that.
At meal times, Gypsy eats inside the pen while Jasper eats outside the pen. I make sure they have privacy while eating.
I'm taking all your advice and work with that.
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
I went with my gut feeling and decided to stop the pre-made raw and Jasper is back to his sweet self. I think they must add something in that food that disagrees with him, maybe hurt his tummy or something.
There's a lot to be said for controlling what goes into your dog. We do have a butcher here but he's way across town. I'd have to know what to buy in order to make sure my dogs get a balanced meal. I'm sure buying them each a full chicken day in and day out is not the right regime?
There's a lot to be said for controlling what goes into your dog. We do have a butcher here but he's way across town. I'd have to know what to buy in order to make sure my dogs get a balanced meal. I'm sure buying them each a full chicken day in and day out is not the right regime?
littledevils
Well-Known Member
So weird. But yes, with the commercially prepared food, you just don't know what's in it.. raw or not. I used to buy pre-made from a company and then they decided to add alfalfa as a supplement to it and Cha didn't tolerate it any more.
Unfortunately chicken day in, day out isn't balanced enough, they do need variety and IMO the bigger the variety the better.
Unfortunately chicken day in, day out isn't balanced enough, they do need variety and IMO the bigger the variety the better.
Scythe
Well-Known Member
So I've started getting into this whole Raw-food thing again, because a customer at work(He's there every night with his dogs to socialize them and talk to staff, etc, cause he loves the store I guess? haha) has unleashed this information that he has some sort of supplier of ground raw, frozen in vacuum sealed bags etc. He feeds his dogs it, he gets it for people for their ferrets, cats, dogs, etc and is even bringing it in for the managers dogue de bordeaux puppy. During my shift I sat and thought to myself... would this be better or not than feeding actual meat, bones, etc seperate and not all ground together? But then I thought... if it's not ground and able to mix in with something shes used to... how the hell would i get her to eat it? But some websites claim that ground raw isnt good for them.
She's about 10, now, and for 8 years of her life, she ate crappy grocery food because I was a kid, knew no better, and neither did my parents. but when she turned 8, I started working in a pet store and messing around with kibble/wet foods for her, she's landed on Wellness canned and Now! kibble. But I feel like raw would be better for her.
I keep reading about Raw, like this entire thread etc, and the whole aspect of feeding raw still puzzles me a bit. There are so many different ways to do it, once I can get the cat to eat ground, where do I go from there? Someone mentioned feeding plain old chicken day in and day out is just as boring as kibble everyday, how would I get variety? Assuming I can get my cat interested in this.
She's about 10, now, and for 8 years of her life, she ate crappy grocery food because I was a kid, knew no better, and neither did my parents. but when she turned 8, I started working in a pet store and messing around with kibble/wet foods for her, she's landed on Wellness canned and Now! kibble. But I feel like raw would be better for her.
I keep reading about Raw, like this entire thread etc, and the whole aspect of feeding raw still puzzles me a bit. There are so many different ways to do it, once I can get the cat to eat ground, where do I go from there? Someone mentioned feeding plain old chicken day in and day out is just as boring as kibble everyday, how would I get variety? Assuming I can get my cat interested in this.
Sorraia
Well-Known Member
Scythe said:
Cats can be harder than dogs to switch, but it can still be done! My 13 year old cat was the easiest of my 3 (the other two were about 8-10 years younger than her) to switch, believe it or not!
Keep doing research and exploring the different kinds of raw diet available and figure out what you believe to be best and would work best for your lifestyle. For me personally, I believe the prey model diet is best, because it is closest to what's natural and is a lot easier for me to deal with than having to add a ton of supplements to their food or worry about what else is in the ground product. One down side of ground, besides not knowing everything that's going into it (unless you are grinding it yourself), is the animal doesn't get quite the same work out they do with whole chunks. This may or may not be a concern for you, that has a lot to do with personal choice.
Chicken day in and day out is not only boring, but may not be very well balanced. The nice thing about providing variety is that different types of meat (and different cuts from the same animal even) have slightly different nutritional values. Beef and other red meats tend to be a little higher in iron than poultry or fish. Fish is higher in omega fatty acids than other types of meat. Organ is an important part of the balanced carnivore diet because it contains a lot of vitamins and minerals that aren't going to be present (or not in sufficient amounts) in muscle, fat, or other tissues. A cat can eat pretty much any kind of meat a dog can, so achieving variety isn't that hard. Options include chicken, turkey, quail, duck, rabbit, beef, pork, lamb, goat, various types of fish, pretty much anything that's available to you. My cats love their beef and pork, enjoy quail, eat chicken and turkey fine, and are so-so about fish (they can take it or leave it most of the time).
Scythe
Well-Known Member
Sorraia said:
Yeah, doing whats 'easiest' for me seems to be ground -- at least, for now. Ground seems to be the best way to get my cat interested in Raw, right now, because I think she'd be more likely to go for it than, say, if i kept throwing pieces of an actual animal in front of her to eat. I think once I can get her onto ground, i can start trying to get chunks of things and then slowly move up to things that'd give her jaw a workout. At least, i HOPE it'll work that way, I just know if I tossed chunks of something infront of her she'd walk away LOL.
Sorraia said:
Yeah, I figured just chicken all the time would kind of suck, but the guy who does this and provides it to some of my coworkers and so on also has things like rabbit, lamb, etc.
Hoopefully this goes well, LOL.
Do you have any really informative websites about the raw food diet you do for your cats, Sorraia?
Moon
Well-Known Member
It may very well be easiest to start her on the ground and try to transition her on to different things later on.... like Sorraia said, do what makes sense to you - if you're not comfortable with the diet you're feeding, then you wont stick to it.
I think that pre-ground is entirely acceptable, but it's good to throw in bone meals as well. I, unlike Sorraia, did not do the prey model diet so much, and was more comfortable adding supplements and pureed vegetables, but he also got full bone meals a few times a week as well.
I think that pre-ground is entirely acceptable, but it's good to throw in bone meals as well. I, unlike Sorraia, did not do the prey model diet so much, and was more comfortable adding supplements and pureed vegetables, but he also got full bone meals a few times a week as well.
Scythe
Well-Known Member
Moon said:
Yeah, thats what I was thinking. That ground would be simpler... closer to wet food than anything, and she loves wet food, so im hoping it'll be easy. And then I can try and introduce her to other things as well.
Introducing her to the bone is whats gonna be the fun part, LOL.
Right now, the fun part for me is dividing it into portions. 10lb of meat... so far in what im reading how much to feed her, that's gonna last me a LONG time, haha. I don't think I bought enough ziploc bags
anic:How expensive IS raw? I'd love to feed my dog raw but isn't it costly? Is it possible to feed both kibble AND raw? My dog free feeds on kibble right now, she does great like that, she's at a perfect weight. I'm feeding her a natural food right now.
Moon
Well-Known Member
KayRatz said:
Some people feed kibble and raw, but it's a touchy subject... some say to never do it, others say you can but only if you use a grain free kibble and make sure the meals are fed at least 12 hours apart.
As for cost, as mentioned in the thread previously, it can be done inexpensively if you do your homework and find yourself a few local suppliers. It also depends on what feeding philosophy you go with.
I have to say it, but I really have to advise against free-feeding. It's great that she's at a good weight, but that's rare. When you free feed, it's hard to see changes in eating habits, which is often one of the first signs that something is wrong with their health. If you never actually know how much they're eating, then you have no way to gauge fluctuations.
Scythe
Well-Known Member
It varies, I suppose, but right now I buy 10lb of ground chicken(which im finding isnt quite that ground, lol, theres still hunk of organ and bone and meat), and pay 22$, but this will last me over a month, chicken alone, not including other things I could feed. It would be more expensive for a dog, obviously... I pity my manager, who is switching his boerboel puppy to raw; that'll be expensive when he's 200lbs!
But I'm finding transitioning the cat easy... I tossed her a couple hunks and she gnawed away on them, but she seems confused by the texture... she gets a chunk of something and starts gagging and then she'll walk away for a bit and come back to gnaw on more.
But I'm finding transitioning the cat easy... I tossed her a couple hunks and she gnawed away on them, but she seems confused by the texture... she gets a chunk of something and starts gagging and then she'll walk away for a bit and come back to gnaw on more.
Moon
Well-Known Member
Scythe said:
So will feeding a decent quality kibble though! 5 cups of dry food twice a day adds up!!
Can I just ask now... why a Boerboel? Hopefully your manager is physically and mentally up to that challenge.....
Scythe
Well-Known Member
Moon said:
Yeah, that's true. I'm just picturing how much he'll go through in one day... eventually 10lbs of raw will be one meal, LOL.
I'm not sure. He loves mastiffs, he's had them before where he used to live(the Bahamas). I think without our trainer at our store he might be a little bit lost. But so far this is quite possibly the most well behaved 3 month old puppy I've ever seen. He already heels, sits, stays, waits, etc. He's certainly a cute puppy, I'll give him that.
Sorraia
Well-Known Member
Scythe - Moon pretty much said what I would have said, so no need to repeat.
If she doesn't transition straight to raw ground easily, another advantage is that you can mix it fairly well with wet food. Start with just a little raw ground mixed with wet, then a little more, a little more, etc. For my cats I didn't bother with ground initially, just cut raw into tiny little chunks that were then mixed with chunky canned food. Gradually added more and more raw, until they were on entirely raw cut into tiny bits. From there gradually made the bits bigger and bigger until they were eating chunks. Once transitioned to fully raw chunks, they still wouldn't eat bone, they really do have to learn how to chew/eat it. At first I was crushing the bones with a hammer to give them the idea. Once they got the hang of it, it was no big deal. I do find that my cats prefer the bones in quail and Cornish game hens over fully sized chickens.
KayRatz - Raw doesn't have to be expensive. For 2 very active, lean dogs (meaning they require a little more food than other dogs of similar size may require, ETA one dog is 50 pounds, the other about 36 pounds) and 2 cats I am spending about $60-80 (depending on what I buy, beef or goat makes the cost higher, more poultry and pork makes it lower) a month. That's at LEAST as much as I would expect to spend on a quality kibble for JUST the dogs. To feed all 4 animals a kibble diet I could easily spend twice as much (Unless I was buying crap kibble). Feeding them a quality canned diet would cost even more. So really, for me a raw diet is a lot LESS expensive than any processed commercial diet I could try.
As for feeding kibble and raw, like Moon said it is controversial. I personally wouldn't do it, but then I also wouldn't feed kibble of any kind unless absolutely positively necessary. Given the choice and ability, I think a diet composed of whole, minimally processed foods is best for any and all animals. That's my opinion.
If she doesn't transition straight to raw ground easily, another advantage is that you can mix it fairly well with wet food. Start with just a little raw ground mixed with wet, then a little more, a little more, etc. For my cats I didn't bother with ground initially, just cut raw into tiny little chunks that were then mixed with chunky canned food. Gradually added more and more raw, until they were on entirely raw cut into tiny bits. From there gradually made the bits bigger and bigger until they were eating chunks. Once transitioned to fully raw chunks, they still wouldn't eat bone, they really do have to learn how to chew/eat it. At first I was crushing the bones with a hammer to give them the idea. Once they got the hang of it, it was no big deal. I do find that my cats prefer the bones in quail and Cornish game hens over fully sized chickens.
KayRatz - Raw doesn't have to be expensive. For 2 very active, lean dogs (meaning they require a little more food than other dogs of similar size may require, ETA one dog is 50 pounds, the other about 36 pounds) and 2 cats I am spending about $60-80 (depending on what I buy, beef or goat makes the cost higher, more poultry and pork makes it lower) a month. That's at LEAST as much as I would expect to spend on a quality kibble for JUST the dogs. To feed all 4 animals a kibble diet I could easily spend twice as much (Unless I was buying crap kibble). Feeding them a quality canned diet would cost even more. So really, for me a raw diet is a lot LESS expensive than any processed commercial diet I could try.
As for feeding kibble and raw, like Moon said it is controversial. I personally wouldn't do it, but then I also wouldn't feed kibble of any kind unless absolutely positively necessary. Given the choice and ability, I think a diet composed of whole, minimally processed foods is best for any and all animals. That's my opinion.
littledevils
Well-Known Member
We switched our kibble only cat to wet only and then ground raw.
One thing I noticed when we switched her was that she wouldn't take the cold right out of the fridge raw.... so we'd warm a little of the raw in water. Not cooking it, just bringing it up to room temp.
Now she eats it right out of the fridge.
As she was used to the taste of the raw... we started giving her whole bones e.g. chicken necks etc. She wouldn't touch them when we first tried but now she digs them. But even ground raw is better than anything else.
Good luck!
With Pickles and Charlie I currently go through 10 lbs of meat every 3 days, it's crazy how fast we go through meat these days.
One thing I noticed when we switched her was that she wouldn't take the cold right out of the fridge raw.... so we'd warm a little of the raw in water. Not cooking it, just bringing it up to room temp.
Now she eats it right out of the fridge.
As she was used to the taste of the raw... we started giving her whole bones e.g. chicken necks etc. She wouldn't touch them when we first tried but now she digs them. But even ground raw is better than anything else.
Good luck!
With Pickles and Charlie I currently go through 10 lbs of meat every 3 days, it's crazy how fast we go through meat these days.
