Commercial eggs and chickens consumption. *crueltywarning*

[Dewi]

On the contrary, vegetarians, and vegans in particular, are definitely not hiding their heads in the sand and are definitely not responsible for the atrocities. It's like blaming someone who refuses to buy pet store puppies for supporting the puppy mills. If anything, most vegos/vegans have faced the cruelty and depravity of the meat industry, and have made a decision that they don't want a part of it. They are essentially boycotting something that they don't approve off.

How come you're so defensive about this topic though? More so than the average person who eats meat. Your attitude is rather defeatist too. Basically you're saying that the problem is never going to be solved so why bother. You wonder what the point is of posting videos like this? Well if just one person decides to eat less meat/chicken/whatever or one person decides that they're quitting meat and becoming vegetarian, then multiple lives get saved from extreme fear and extreme suffering. Do you really think that people should stop educating other people just because some get offended? I hope not. If you hate it, why read these types of threads, especially as you know they push your buttons.

Taking your defeatist reasoning further, does this mean that we should not speak up against rape, child abuse, domestic abuse etc, just because we can't ever put an end to it? Should all charities, from Amnesty International to your local rat rescue, just fold and and die, just because the problem will never be solved?

Regardless of whether you disapprove of the cruelty or not, you eat the meat so have created the demand and as such are responsible for the cruelty. Like it or not, you, along with countless others, are responsible. If you purchase a fur coat, aren't you responsible for that animal dying for the coat and for creating a demand for the coat? This is basic economics 101.

I'm far from extremist. Extremist would be blowing up a building. I think it's a blessing that footage like this is available to educate and remind people of what really goes on. The main issue here is that you are offended. Stop being so focused on blame and bringing this whole conversation about whether you are personally responsible or not. This isn't about you nor how offended you are, this is about animal suffering within the food industry!

I totally agree with that. Just because I eat meat, eggs, milk etc DOES NOT mean that I agree with the cruelty showed in that video. These things have been happening long before I was born and will continue long after I die. Turning vegan will not change that. It will continue but then I will be able to hide my head in the sand, claim that I don't contribute to such atrocities and blame others for it. But the atrocities will continue no matter what.

What is the proportion of vegan/vegetarians on this planet compared to meat eaters? It is unrealistic to believe that showing these videos and creating bad guilt trip on people will convince the entire population to go vegan/vegetarian.

There are wars in the world. We want it to stop, we hate it but there are wars. There are bad people out there who steal, kill, rape, kidnap children and keep them in dungeons for years. Thousands and thousands of unborn children are killed in the USA every DAY and it is accepted by the vast majority of the population. And I'm not talking about the number of abortions in the rest of the world. Violence is everywhere. Millions of humans are victims of violence every day, not just animals.

I wish we lived in a better world but unfortunately, we don't. We can all do our best to achieve this goal. However, producing such videos and blaming people for those atrocities, telling them it's their fault and that it is done on their behalf is not effective for most people and will not convince them to convert to something they don't want to. I'm one of these people.

As for being responsible for cruelty towards animals, I DON'T THINK SO! I am an animal owner and I treat them better than a lot of people. I feed them the proper food. I heard that some vegans feed their cats and dogs with non animal products which is wrong in my opinion. I give them proper vet care.

It is good to make people aware about what is happening. However, I don't think that being extremist about it will make a difference.

 

[ryelle]

How come you're so defensive about this topic though? More so than the average person who eats meat

Not true, people just keep their mouths shut because they can't be bothered with an endless argument. Its saying that if you eat meat you support animal abuse that i think is stepping on toes and out of order.

Why is it that in the UK it is legal to sell meat from animals that have been killed by a certified butcher rather than what it is in Australia where animals are killed by any old fool at a certified slaughterhouse. So in the UK, the butcher can go to the little farms and kill the animals there. Far less traumatic for the animals. Mind you most meat in the UK is from the abattoir. I agree that the most responsible way to get meat is to raise the animal yourself under good conditions and to kill them swiftly causing as little fear and pain as possible. Understandably there will be some pain and fear, but it will be a fraction compared with what happens on a commercial level if done properly.

Ideally, any person - vegan/vegetarian or meat eaters, or even those people on those bizarre liquid diets - should support that kind of slaughter rather than an abattoir. Its supermarkets that are our downfall - with their nasty, cheap meat products. Its also us, with our laziness, ignorance and lifestyles - demand and convenience. Go find yourself a nice butcher, not only is it better value for money, but you can trust the food you are eating to be high quality and humanely produced (in most cases). Its exactly the same with vegetables. (i also believe in supporting your community and not supermarkets )

But, just because you eat meat, doesn't mean that you support animal abuse.

I SERIOUSLY wish i had the space and license to keep hens/chickens for eggs

 

[Jack Sparrow]

But, just because you eat meat, doesn't mean that you support animal abuse.

Well said.

Extremist vegans/vegetarians implie that I do.

 

[jorats]

We meat eaters who buy meat from grocery stores may not support animal abuse in the food industry but we are definitely the cause of it. Unfortunately many of us have can't afford to buy from local farms and many of us lack the will power to become vegetarian. Take for example smokers... they are literally killing themselves but yet they continue to smoke.

 

[Jack Sparrow]

Its saying that if you eat meat you support animal abuse that i think is stepping on toes and out of order.

Completely agree with that. Vegans/vegetarians are attacking the wrong source. Especially the extremist ones. We should focus on the way animals are killed and try to change that rather than say that meat eaters are cruel and support animal cruelty.

 

[jorats]

We should focus on the way animals are killed and try to change that rather than say that meat eater are cruel and support animal cruelty.

You will never get a corporation fueled by profit to ever change their methods. Why should they? The people must change the corporation's methods and how do you do that? Cut off their profits by not buying the meat.

 

[Vanessa]

What a bunch of hypocrites!
I can't believe that anyone who has brought up abortion even ONCE on this forum would come on here and even try to pretend that they are in any position to dictate what topics should be discussed. The audacity of you! And it isn't as if people have been impartial on where they stand on the topic of abortion either - making anyone who doesn't agree with them feel as if judgement is being passed on them.
JS, in a previous post you said that you feel that abortion is the saddest thing in the world, or something to that effect, and you would be the first to defend your stance on that statement. Does it occur to you that maybe some people feel that the suffering, misery, agony and death of billions and billions of animals for food is the saddest thing on the planet?
And your suggestion that we should be instead concentrating on a kinder and gentler way to kill animals for food can just as easily be turned on you for not concentrating on finding a kinder and gentler way to give abortions. Your opinion is abortions should stop - and you aren't moving an inch on that opinion. Some people feel that the misery of these animals should stop and they aren't going to move an inch on it either. Just because you feel that you're opinion is somehow more justified doesn't make it so - so give up on your whining.
If you people don't see that you are passing just as much judgement on others as you feel is being passed on you - then you should start getting a clue.

And as far as this rhetoric on being omnivores goes, you should also do some research and look beyond the people who live on this continent alone. Many, many millions of people on this planet have lived in communities for tens of generations that have had very little to do with any meat products. They are just too poor and don't have access to anything more than one or two meals a month of chicken and a bit of fish - they have survived on grains and vegetation alone and there is nothing different about them than any of us. Unless, of course you take into account that they are rarely obese, don't suffer from heart disease, diabetes or high blood pressure and live longer than we do. That arguement is also a big FAIL.

 

[Jack Sparrow]

Glad to see that you understand how I feel for being judged. See? It's no fun.

 

[Tarah]

I don't think anyone is being judged, JS.

 

[Vanessa]

Good, maybe next time you will think more about what opinions you share with others before you just post them without consideration if others are going to feel judged. And if you are still going to voice them regardless, which you are absolutely entitled to do, then expect that others are going to do the same.

And just for the record - I am NOT vegan. Dewi's post is directed at me as much as anyone else here. The only difference is that I accept the truth of the situation and I don't go whining my face off about it and blaming Dewi for making me feel poorly about supporting the industry. If I feel badly then that is MY fault and not Dewi's for posting a video about it.
I still eat eggs and egg products, although I do not buy eggs in the grocery store, and I am still eating a little bit of dairy products like cheese and yogurt. So, Dewi's post is just as much directed towards me as it is to the meat eaters. You don't hear me complaining about it, do you?
Dewi is just posting about something that she feels very strongly about, just like everyone else gets to do- including you - and is trying to bring some awareness to people about the dairy industry in the hopes that maybe people think about making some changes that will alleviate some of the suffering.

 

[sausage4ever]

Just a quick correction Vanessa I think you mean the poultry indsutry...

 

[Dewi]

You are more than misquoting me Ryelle. I said that if you eat commercial meat, eggs & diary you are responsible for the cruelties associated with the production of these products. I still drink some commercially produced dairy so I am responsible for some of the atrocities that go on, but I have cut this down so much in recent times and will soon consume none of it. Do I sit here feeling sorry for myself and act defensively saying "I am not to blame. I AM NOT A BAD PERSON!!!!! I am not responsible!". No, instead I accept my responsibility, I admit to myself that I don't like it and then take on a new day trying to make a difference rather than act defeatist or even self-pitying. I don't pass the blame on to someone else so that i can feel a little better about myself. Please note that the latter half of this paragraph applies to Jack Sparrow's response and not yours Ryelle.

So for the record, I did not at any stage say or imply that people who eat meat support animal abuse! So please don't exaggerate this nor put words into my mouth. There is a definite difference between being aware of & responsible for the consequences of ones actions, and being a supporter of animal abuse.

How come you're so defensive about this topic though? More so than the average person who eats meat

Not true, people just keep their mouths shut because they can't be bothered with an endless argument. Its saying that if you eat meat you support animal abuse that i think is stepping on toes and out of order.

 

[Fidget]

Regardless of whether you disapprove of the cruelty or not, you eat the meat so have created the demand and as such are responsible for the cruelty.

Hey, Hey, hold on there Dewi! I am not responsible for the cruelty. In all of nature it is natural for animals to eat other animals, but we humans pride ourselves on higher qualities like compassion, so we should be able to eradicate the torture & terror. I write letters and have signed numerous petiions against it. I'd rather pay twice the price for meat and have no critter suffer.
Just because I am part of the demand for meat doesn't mean I am responsible for the practices I abhor. Eh?

 

[Argent]

I thought that video was absolutely awful Even worse than UK conditions (which are *slowly* improving). The majority of our eggs come from free range chickens now but I still get upset with my parents for buying the cheap meat in supermarkets, even though that's all we can really afford. I'd rather pay a good quality butcher for chicken that has been humanely slaughtered, and as soon as I'm out from under my parent's roof, I will be doing so.

I've already stopped eating pigs in any shape or form thanks to a documentary uncovering what goes on in a UK abattoir, I hold pigs as close to my heart as dogs, it just seems very very wrong to me. Also, I eat no lamb, and very little beef (always British/Irish Beef where it has been raised according to certain welfare standards) Due to my odd tastes and inability to keep weight on, I can't really become completely vegetarian/vegan, I'd probably die so I have to live with myself eating chickens that I know haven't come from the best conditions - I will change where I get my meat from, my demands will be to the local butchers, not the big supermarkets, it's just down to circumstance at the moment. >.<

A British 'celebrity chef' Hugh Fearnley Whittingstall has looked into the mainstream chicken industry in the UK and knows all about the demand and supply, so he's been trying to get people to open their eyes to the suffering and buy free range chicken at the very least if you're going to buy from a supermarket. He's looked into exactly how the chickens are raised, the whole 39 day life cycle from the egg to the table and it definately opened my eyes to it all. His campaign is called the Chicken Out campaign, and aims to improve the lives of UK chickens so that they're treated better, live longer and die in a more humane way.

I'm ashamed of myself for not practicing what I preach, I want to buy the well treated meat, but home circumstance doesn't allow it.

Just sharing my views with the OP I know how these kinds of subjects spark things off - it does around my dinner table all the time >.<

 

[ryelle]

Im in the same boat Argent.
I live with my mam, and have no job and therefore cant contribute at all to anything. I dont eat a LOT of meats either.. my sister keeps trying to get me to eat Lamb but ugh, no thank you

I just opened my fridge and found our eggs are 'free-range' - GLENRATH'S FREE-RANGE EGGS. I rarely eat eggs, like.. once every 2 months or something. Sometimes the slimey textures makes me sick, and im just not that big on the taste. The place where my 'free-range' eggs have come from AREN'T actually free-range. You have to be careful when buying free-range eggs from a supermarket though. There was a program on telly about it before. Supermarkets label their eggs and chickens as 'free-range' when half the time they arent truely free-range, they are kept in large over-crowded sheds instead of battery cages, when true free-range chickens/hens should be living in fields.

Here is an article i've found about the place where my 'free-range' eggs have come from:
"Fury at 250,000 hen farm's 'free range' claim"
http://www.heraldscotland.com/fury-at-250-000-hen-farm-s-free-range-claim-1.827135

 

[Argent]

That's awful! I had no idea about that D< Good thing I don't even eat eggs...my ratties do from time to time though :/

 

[Vanessa]

Just because I am part of the demand for meat doesn't mean I am responsible for the practices I abhor. Eh?

Yes, you are Fidget.
If you demand a product that is only going to be produced by an animal that is slaughtered, whether it is from a factory farm or a smaller operation they ALL end up at the slaughterhouse, then you are responsible. Just because you don't like the way they are slaughtered doesn't absolve you from being responsible for it.
If you go with your reasoning, then people who buy fur coats aren't responsible for how the animals are killed for them, people who like having heads of animals hanging in their libraries aren't responsible for hunting, people who like to go to the circus aren't responsible for the animals being beaten in order to perform, people who buy cosmetics that were tested on animals aren't responsible for what happens to those animals during those tests, and people who feed rodents to snakes aren't responsible for how those rodents die either.
That animal died for the product that you bought, and just because you don't like HOW it died doesn't mean you aren't responsible for it dying.
Not liking the way your product is produced, whether it be an animal dying, a forest being clear cut, child and slave labour being used, the environment being affected, then you are responsible for the process - from start to finish - of how that product was produced.
That's like me saying that I love buying paper products, but I abhor trees being cut down for them, so I am not responsible for that tree being cut down that produced my paper.
It doesn't work that way.

 

[blytherue]

I was going to make a devil's advocate post arguing both sides in a very extreme manner because that's what I usually do irl when friends are arguing...but then I realized how unsuitablly subtle text can be and a lot of people already seem pretty pissed, so I will make a different appeal. I want to appeal to everyone on both sides to take a deep breath and realize you're not enemies, let's do the look at it from another person's pov thing.
On one side, a post like the one that began this thread can come off to people who have not made the same life choices as preachy and condescending (this really goes for all controversial topics, not just the one in question). On the other side, someone who is trying to raise awareness by broaching this topic is not trying to be preachy and condescending, they are just trying to help a cause they feel strongly about by raising awareness in other people. The people who disagree on a controversial topic with such vehemence will likely never change their minds, but I think people can have a discussion without acting disrespectful to one another.
I don't have a side, check my character sheet, I'm true neutral. (And a total dork!) And like I said, sometimes I do like to encourage a good argument, but I think everyone seems a little bit...angry! And I'm sorry if I come off as preachy, but my role is to try to sow a little peace! (I do the same thing with my family...)

 

[jorats]

Sowing peace is always a good thing. :nod:

 

[Vanessa]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ari-solomon/who-you-callin-vegangelic_b_290582.html

Who You Callin' Vegangelical?
Ari Solomon



Recently I've heard some perplexing criticisms of veganism. They go something like this: vegans are extremists, vegans are so preachy, veganism is like some fanatical religion, veganism is a cult.. There obviously is some misunderstanding going on and I'd like to try and stamp out this issue once and for all. I realize I can't possibly speak for all vegans, but this is how I see it:

First of all, veganism is clearly not some religion or cult. There is no Church of Vegan. Veganism is a philosophy. Donald Watson first coined the term "vegan" in 1944. This was how he defined it:

The word "veganism" denotes a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude -- as far as is possible and practical -- all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.

Sounds pretty simple right? Well, nowadays people become vegan for all different reasons. They might go vegan because of health reasons, or perhaps they've read that animal agriculture is the number one cause of global warming. But, if someone is an ethical vegan, that means they've chosen to open their mind and heart to the suffering of animals. They want to alleviate unnecessary suffering where they can. (There are actually some people who feel that unless you go vegan for ethical reasons that you're not really "vegan", but that's a whole other story.)

Here's where things get interesting. While many of us may feel a certain attachment to the food we eat (cheese, anyone?), there is actually no human dietary requirement for animal foods. It's true. You don't need to eat meat, dairy or eggs to live.

In fact, Dr. Colin Campbell, who conducted the foremost study on human nutrition for over 40 years, detailed in his book The China Study how a vegan diet is actually better suited for optimal human health. This means that people eat animals not because they have to, but because they want to. Now, of course I'm not talking about people who live in countries where food is scarce and they'll die unless they eat animal foods. I'm talking about you and me. People who shop at the supermarket where tofu, beans, rice, grains, fruits and vegetables are mere feet from meat, dairy and eggs. We have a choice.

In case you're not up to speed, over 98% of all meat, dairy, and eggs produced in the US comes from factory farms. The conditions in these places are truly horrendous. Animals are crammed in spaces so tight they can't turn around. They literally go insane, lying around all day and night in their own feces. They never see sunlight, have their beaks, horns and genitals cut off (without anesthetic) and are horribly abused by stressed and desensitized farm workers. We kill 10 billion animals for "food" a year in this country, that's over 27 million animals a day. Most of those animals are birds, and all poultry (chickens, turkeys, ducks, and rabbits... yes, rabbits are considered poultry under the law) are excluded from the barely enforced Humane Slaughter Act.

Now, before you start at me with some "humane meat" "happy meat" bullshit please take note that all animals, whether they are raised in the nastiest of factory farms or grass-fed, free-range, blah blah blah, are all sent to the same slaughterhouses. That's right, your organic steer is being sent to the same hell as a downer cow and will meet the same ghastly end. If you are a "humane meat" consumer, please take a moment and meditate on the whole concept of humane killing... bloody, fearful, struggling, screaming, despairing humane killing. It's never pretty and it certainly isn't "humane."

There is a video making rounds on YouTube that shows a lone cow shaking in terror as she contemplates walking down the kill chute. She walks forward, then back. Animals can hear and smell the violence and death that awaits them. Their last moments are ones of abject horror and suffering. If you wouldn't condemn your dog or cat to such a fate, how can you pay for others do it to these poor animals?

So. When a vegan is talking to a meat-eater about these issues, he or she is not "preaching", "trying to convert", or any such thing. We're not telling you what to eat. We're telling you what you're eating.

Since animals can't speak a language humans can understand (though I think the screams and terrified moans that fill slaughterhouses should be pretty much universal -- all living beings want to live) it's up to us to tell their stories and inform people of the suffering that goes on conveniently out of the public eye.

If, as a meat-eater, being exposed to this reality bothers you, it is not the fault of the vegan. Lashing out or making up endless excuses doesn't change the stark scientific fact that animals are suffering because of our taste buds. Your neatly packaged chicken breast, all wrapped in pristine plastic, was once part of an animal that felt fear and pain. It's called responsibility and culpability, and we're all to blame.

Now, you may try to argue that eating animals is a matter of personal opinion or choice, but again I'd have to disagree -- this is not about your opinion versus my opinion, this is about animal suffering. You can't discuss your "personal choice" of eating animals while leaving animals completely out of the conversation.

Think of it this way, if you were walking down the street and saw someone beating their dog, would you try to do something to stop it? The same principle applies here. Since eating animal foods is a question of want and like versus need, killing a sentient being, when there is absolutely no need -- except for someone's pleasure -- becomes simply unnecessary and merciless.

And if we say we care about cruelty to animals then it's time we start caring about all animals. Yes, dogs and cats are companion animals but in terms of suffering our canine and feline friends feel the same as a pig, cow, chicken, lamb, or turkey. To pick and choose species in terms of whose pain we care about is incredibly hypocritical and inconsistent. Sorry, but if you're eating veal parmigiana or turkey sandwiches, you don't really care about animals. You may care about dogs and cats but you certainly don't care about birds and baby cows.

So, who's the real extremist? The person who tries to stop unnecessary suffering by cutting out animal products, or the person who says, "I like the way that tastes, so a sentient being needs suffer and die?"

Who's the real fundamentalist? The person who simply speaks the truth about where food comes from, or the person who knowingly chooses to ignore it, listening only to the falsehoods of the meat and dairy clergy? Isn't the latter more akin to choosing to believe the earth is 5,000 years old despite clear evidence to the contrary?

The reality is that veganism couldn't be more different from religion. While religion is based on faith, veganism is based on facts. Animal suffering is not some ethereal concept, it's very real.

All animals deserve to be free from unnecessary pain, fear, and suffering at the hands of humans. How can anything less claim to be humane? Do I want more people to go vegan, is that why I talk and write about it? Of course, but it has nothing to do with me or some group that I belong to. It has to do with the animals who suffer everyday so that we can eat them, wear them, and do whatever we want to them simply because we can.

Veganism is the practical response to a social injustice. Instead of vegangelical, the word should be veganlogical.