Sooo Let's Get it ALL out in the Open Shall We? - Poss. SV

[Nickelrat]

Shelagh needs our love and support not our criticism. Therefore it's understandable that she gets easily hurt by members worried thoughts.

No offense but I did not say a thing until this thread was posted and I believe the same for other members too.
So it's not fair to blame anybody that posted here when the thread was posted by Shelagh and left open for people to give their thoughts and opinions.

Nowhere does Nic lay blame Ratloveandcute - she essentially said what Jo stated also - emotions are raw, its a scary and upsetting situation for all.

It's not hard to imagine that in similar circumstances, you would potentially be sensitive to peoples concerns, especially if they may have a "tone" associated with them (which i am not implying that ANYONE is talking with a "tone" but in text this is VERY hard to discern). Shelagh is very worried about the health and well being of her rat family. And I think its fair to say (sorry if im shoving words in your mouth Nic but I'm sayin' em now too!) that Nic was just trying to shift the focus off of the "blame game" and onto more important, constructive, matters.

Thank you Cityratt. :exactly:

 

[Cityratt]

...Im confused, maybe it explains it somewhere but there are a lot of pages to read through.... what exactly is this about? what is SV???

Its Sendai Virus Rattus - Im working on sifting through some journal articles to get some information to the fourm thats been peer-reviewed and published but anyhow

its a very contagious virus that affects the respiratory tract, causing respiratory distress because it causes the cells lining the lung to become swollen and they cannot work properly.

Do you get this virus from specific things.. or is it just like a normal very contagious respiratory infection?

My understanding is that it is spread from rat to rat via respiratory droplets (Aerosol transmission - like us coughing or sneezing and having "germs" in the fluid) but some studies also say that it can be transmitted via formites (intimate objects like toys, water bottles, etc etc) Sendai is in the same "family" as human parainfluenza viruses 1 and 3 (just different subgroups) it has an H component and an N component, just like the human H1N1 (but I dont know the numbers for Sendai off hand - but it IS NOT THE SAME AS H1N1 )

 

[Alicemcmallis]

Unfortunately it doesn't work that way, you have to test the antibodies not the active infection. I am looking into other places that do the testing (not so much the vet that does the blood work) and it seems the best places are the big labs in the US. U of Guelph only does tests on dead animals, no blood essays, etc. But I have some feelers out to see if there's any other labs that might test in Ontario

But it says this on the rat guide:

The virus titer peaks at 5 to 6 days, then decreases to undetectable levels throughout the respiratory tract around day 14 post infection.

Note: Since the SV is self limiting, rats that are not actively infected or carrying Sendai can test positive for antibodies from a prior infection for up to one year. A titer level can help indicate whether the infection is currently active, recently active, or from past exposure.

So if you're testing them well after they're showing any signs of infection, the results won't really help determine if what all the rats have is Sendai or not. It will just say whether or not that rat has been exposed to that virus at all in the last year of it's life.

 

[Rattus]

Im very curious about this now! Can it have flare ups? like spreading through Ontario or is it really always around?
This is kinda Scaring me....

 

[blytherue]

I am so confused. This is probably why I have no real life girl friends. I believe it's been stated that shel needed supplies in order to continue to take care of herself and her ratties, not just rat supplies, but even syringes for insulin! (I hope you didn't have to resort to reusing syringes! My grandpa was doing that for a while to save money cause he was too proud to ask for help. As soon as I found out I started buying them for him.) She's said she has a bad back which is why chel and Amanda (I'm sorry I'm not really familiar with everyone's real names) had to come up. And of course they wanted to help with the ratties while they were there...we all love rats, isn't that the point? They then followed precautions to avoid passing on whatever this horrible disease is. And chel is under qt now too as an extra precaution. And everyone is an adult and able to make their own decisions about their friends and their rats. No one forced anyone to do anything here and I don't see why it's anyone's business really. I am very sad for what everyone is going through and they are obviously doing their best to handle the situation, beyond that...why? Anytime one of these he said, she said situations (usually she said, she said lol) comes up I am just always so confused!

Now I'm doing it! Sorry for ranting!

 

[Rachael]

Im very curious about this now! Can it have flare ups? like spreading through Ontario or is it really always around?
This is kinda Scaring me....

No. As long as you haven't visited anybody that has the virus your rats should be fine. That's what this debate is over really.

Alice I was going to post this. It really might not work, getting tests done.

 

[Rattus]

No. As long as you haven't visited anybody that has the virus your rats should be fine. That's what this debate is over really.

fewww! LOL I was like OMG NO!

 

[lilspaz68]

Got emails out on this, but from what I understand because you have that finite 14 day window and some rats don't show signs of infection until close to that time, they only test after since they won't be able to tell when each particular rat was infected.

 

[lilspaz68]

Unfortunately it doesn't work that way, you have to test the antibodies not the active infection. I am looking into other places that do the testing (not so much the vet that does the blood work) and it seems the best places are the big labs in the US. U of Guelph only does tests on dead animals, no blood essays, etc. But I have some feelers out to see if there's any other labs that might test in Ontario

But it says this on the rat guide:

The virus titer peaks at 5 to 6 days, then decreases to undetectable levels throughout the respiratory tract around day 14 post infection.

Note: Since the SV is self limiting, rats that are not actively infected or carrying Sendai can test positive for antibodies from a prior infection for up to one year. A titer level can help indicate whether the infection is currently active, recently active, or from past exposure.

So if you're testing them well after they're showing any signs of infection, the results won't really help determine if what all the rats have is Sendai or not. It will just say whether or not that rat has been exposed to that virus at all in the last year of it's life.

We are doing this to find out if SV is in Ontario, if the rats show they have been infected within the last 12 months, there is our answer. My rats will be dead or immune at that point. Small possibility it is something else like a virulent strain of myco, which is why I will do the comprehensive test and not just test for Sendai.

 

[lj]

Wow! Lots has been said since I last logged in.

My two cents:

Shelagh, you are a wonderful woman and I know that you are doing EVERYTHING for these babies.

What I don't understand is why people are so angry about this. I can understand if people are scared, but you can't have a hate on for someone visiting someone else. That's their choice, not yours. You may have done things differently, but it's not really your decision to make, right?

I'd like to know how many people out there with multiple rats have ever brought in another rat without a proper qt? It sort of sounds to me like this is a big problem to some people. Let's face it, if we all did a proper qt, then we'd only have a handful of rats. Then there would be hundreds (yes hundreds) that would not be in the rescue's in Ontario. Where would they be now?

I, myself do not have the needed help in my rescue to be able to provide a full qt. I keep my new rats in another room on a different floor of my house, but they still have the same air circulation as the others. That is the best that I can offer the new rats coming in here. If I am irresponsible because I can't do that, then perhaps people should stop rescuing altogether? If a home can provide the needed food, care, and massive vet bills, then why would a life of less be given to them. I mean, if some of the rats that I have had/or do have here, were with someone else, they'd have been discarded a long time ago. A lot of pet owners simply think that small animals don't need to be treated the same as a larger animal like a dog or a cat and won't have needed surgeries done on them. Would that be a better home? I don't think so.

Is there any way really knowing that rats with SV aren't just hosts? And even after a qt period could still infect other rats?

 

[lilangel]

Wow! Lots has been said since I last logged in.

My two cents:

Shelagh, you are a wonderful woman and I know that you are doing EVERYTHING for these babies.

What I don't understand is why people are so angry about this. I can understand if people are scared, but you can't have a hate on for someone visiting someone else. That's their choice, not yours. You may have done things differently, but it's not really your decision to make, right?

I'd like to know how many people out there with multiple rats have ever brought in another rat without a proper qt? It sort of sounds to me like this is a big problem to some people. Let's face it, if we all did a proper qt, then we'd only have a handful of rats. Then there would be hundreds (yes hundreds) that would not be in the rescue's in Ontario. Where would they be now?

I, myself do not have the needed help in my rescue to be able to provide a full qt. I keep my new rats in another room on a different floor of my house, but they still have the same air circulation as the others. That is the best that I can offer the new rats coming in here. If I am irresponsible because I can't do that, then perhaps people should stop rescuing altogether? If a home can provide the needed food, care, and massive vet bills, then why would a life of less be given to them. I mean, if some of the rats that I have had/or do have here, were with someone else, they'd have been discarded a long time ago. A lot of pet owners simply think that small animals don't need to be treated the same as a larger animal like a dog or a cat and won't have needed surgeries done on them. Would that be a better home? I don't think so.

Is there any way really knowing that rats with SV aren't just hosts? And even after a qt period could still infect other rats?

Exactly for me also i can not do Q as i do not have friends or family i am alone in this. So i do the next best thing as what Lj stated but i do not have levels in my places sadly but i do what i can for my rats under my care. Just like Shelagh does for hers.

 

[Bellaratta]

It is very common for everyone to freak out when a colony illness happens. Especially if it is something new to your area.

We have dealt with viral outbreaks here in the states for many years. It is not as common now, but it does still happen. Many of us are pretty careful about quarantine.

Everyone just needs to try to stay calm and supportive. The affected colonies are shut down and probably will continue to be for several months AFTER all signs of illness have passed. You may never know FOR SURE where it started.

As for testing ...
You have to give the rats time to make antibodies before testing can even be attempted. The titer count will be able to help determine if the infection was recent or from an old exposure. I would test a younger rat (4-6 months). Even so, there is always the chance for false negatives.

Do not confuse the following statement with testing protocol:

The virus titer peaks at 5 to 6 days, then decreases to undetectable levels throughout the respiratory tract around day 14 post infection.

The testing is done with BLOOD and has nothing to do with the respiratory tract!

There is nothing irresponsible about someone going to help with an infected colony as long as they take certain precautions.

Viral organisms that cause colony illness will inactivate after about 3 hours.
Bacterial pathogens can be dealt with by changing clothes and showering.

So, after you visit, take a long drive, go see a movie, do your grocery shopping, and then go home and take a good shower.

The Rat Guide Sendai article is pretty darned accurate. We are not scientists- that is why after the article was finished it was proofed and approved by:

Dr. Abigail L. Smith, MPH, PhD., ACLAD, ILAR
Past President American Committee on Laboratory Animal Diseases (ACLAD)

Dr. Craig L. Franklin, DVM, PhD., ACLAM
Research Animal Diagnostic Laboratory (RADIL) University of Missouri
(Sendai & CAR bacillus)

Dr. Robert Jacoby, DVM, PhD., Dipl. ACVP
Professor and Chairman, Section of Comparative Medicine Yale University School of Medicine

They ALL concur that SV does not remain in a carrier state- the exception is when it is in a breeding colony where it is constantly perpetuated with each litter born.

 

[fenshae]

Y'know, it's funny...being down here in New Mexico, which isn't exactly the land of rats (there are no breeders or rescues that I know of anywhere in the state -- closest of either would be a 7hr drive), I've often debated on the importance of a full quarantine. To date I admit, not exactly proudly but truthfully, that I have never done a full quarantine. And so far, that hasn't been an issue.

I don't know what I'd do, though, if I were in a position like Shelagh -- in total isolation with SO MANY sick animals -- I would be dying because I don't have any rat friends down here. Although I suppose it would be a blessing in some ways because at least anybody I could persuade to help me would be guaranteed not to be infecting any other rats. Sometimes it comes in real handy to have rat-sympathetic-but-not-owning friends, and it's precisely those kinds of friends that would make a full quarantine possible.....but if you don't have them, you don't have them, and you can't well be held at fault for that.

All I can say is :hugs: to everyone involved....you will get through this

 

[lilratsy43]

All I can say is WOW, it's only been like 12hrs since my last visit and this thread is already 7 pages...LOL!!!

Shelagh after meeting you once I know you would give your left arm to make sure all your rats are WELL cared for!!!
So this is what I offer:

:hugs:

:grouphug:

 

[Avatar]

Just thought I'd let everyone know that I have e-mailed to speak to a Virologist within the next week or so. She's being sympathetic to the cause, and has let me know that as soon as her grant proposals due early next week are completed, she would be happy to speak to me.

I intend to ask her details about the Sendai Virus, as well as if there is any more localized testing areas for it (it may be faster and cheaper to discover if this is what we think it is).

I will post again once I have an answer of some kind to share.

 

[ryelle]

Im assuming the virus isn't zoonotic?

 

[lilspaz68]

Not a bit zoonotic. Hamsters, mice and rats only.

 

[ryelle]

PHEW! *wipes sweat off brow*

 

[lilspaz68]

there is actually few things that can pass between humans and pet rats thank god...very few. Strep pneumonia, ringworm, to name a few, rat bite fever (rare) but the viruses are strictly for rodents.

 

[Bellaratta]

Not a bit zoonotic. Hamsters, mice and rats only.

And guinea pigs, too!