Crass/Paya Intros - Ugh.

[Spork]

Within a few minutes of putting them down on the bathroom floor the was a scuffle, and Paya got bitten.

They did fine on the floor earlier today. There was still tons of posturing, but they'd been scuffling less and with far less intensity.

And now this.

:wallbang:

 

[lilspaz68]

Within a few minutes of putting them down on the bathroom floor the was a scuffle, and Paya got bitten.

They did fine on the floor earlier today. There was still tons of posturing, but they'd been scuffling less and with far less intensity.

And now this.

:wallbang:

That looks like a shallow slice...rat teeth are really sharp and sometimes (even amongst friends) one rat zigs when he/she should've zagged and these wounds occur. Now a bd bite would be a deep puncture wound...those are always deliberate. I wouldn't consider this a deal breaker or reason to stop your intro's.

 

[jorats]

The image is not coming up for me.

But still, it's not a reason to stop your intros. You need to dominate Crass. Every time she goes near Paya, place your hand over her head and press gently down. Hold for a couple of seconds and release. If she screams bloody murder, don't worry about it, that means it's working. If she doesn't scream and lets you do it, then she's not being aggressive just fearful.

 

[jorats]

I'm seeing the pic now... so I'd definitely dominate Crass when she lunges for Paya and if she doesn't smarten up with the dominance, it's back to the tub and water for her.

 

[Spork]

Crass lunged at Paya and my thumb got in the way:

[spoiler:1k75qv0c]

[/spoiler:1k75qv0c]

The session lasted nearly and hour.

I put them on the floor, but I realized I wasn't comfortable with Crass going anywhere near Paya yet, so I decide to start off in a watery tub.

The did fine in the tub with water, Crass used Paya to prop herself up, but without any aggression:

They even ate together:

I drained the tub, and again it was fine. They mostly just ignored each other and groomed themselves.
I moved them to the floor, occasionally Crass would try to bully Paya, but I would dominate her or move her away if I thought she was out of line. At one point Paya was on my lap, and Crass was coming up behind her, she lunged at Paya, but got me instead.

 

[jorats]

What is Crass' reaction when you dominate her?

You might need to do watery tub for at least a week. They need to bond first. No dry tub and no floor intros for a week.

 

[Spork]

What is Crass' reaction when you dominate her?

You might need to do watery tub for at least a week. They need to bond first. No dry tub and no floor intros for a week.

She'll squeak if she's really focused on Paya, and no matter what she'll try to scuttle backwards out from underneath my hand.

Ok, I'll stick to the water for the time being... How will I know when they're ready to move on?

 

[jorats]

The fact that she freaks out during the dominance means she's a big bully and will most likely be able to change her behaviour towards Paya. It's those that don't scream that are confusing and being brats for fun.
The only way you'll know it's time to move the intros is when you go for the floor and Crass doesn't jump Paya. Usually a week is good. Make sure your intros are at least 30 minutes. The longer the better.

 

[jennifervb]

OUCH!!! That thumb looks like it hurts!!! Was Crass sorry for biting you? Shame on her! She needs to get that PMS under control! anic:

Don't tell Crass that her name means "boorish or indelicate" in both the English and the German languages.... we wouldn't want to harm her little, aggressive, psyche... :cheeky: :bunnydance:

 

[Spork]

OUCH!!! That thumb looks like it hurts!!! Was Crass sorry for biting you? Shame on her! She needs to get that PMS under control! anic:

Don't tell Crass that her name means "boorish or indelicate" in both the English and the German languages.... we wouldn't want to harm her little, aggressive, psyche... :cheeky: :bunnydance:

It looks worse than it is (after all, I did make sure to get a pic before washing the blood off) but it was definitely startling. Her teeth hit my thumbnail right at the cuticle, and actually went under the skin, its barely visible now that it's cleaned up. Luckily she let go right away.

And as for her name, she's actually named after the punk band Crass, but alas, both meanings seem appropriate for her. :roll: :giggle:

 

[jennifervb]

OUCH!!! That thumb looks like it hurts!!! Was Crass sorry for biting you? Shame on her! She needs to get that PMS under control! anic:

Don't tell Crass that her name means "boorish or indelicate" in both the English and the German languages.... we wouldn't want to harm her little, aggressive, psyche... :cheeky: :bunnydance:

It looks worse than it is (after all, I did make sure to get a pic before washing the blood off) but it was definitely startling. Her teeth hit my thumbnail right at the cuticle, and actually went under the skin, its barely visible now that it's cleaned up. Luckily she let go right away.

And as for her name, she's actually named after the punk band Crass, but alas, both meanings seem appropriate for her. :roll: :giggle:

Give her a bright purple mohawk and all will be well. :bunnydance: :laugh4: :heart: :rose:

 

[Spork]

Ok, I've done a couple more wet bathtub sessions, Paya is getting more comfortable, and I'm seeing a lot more interaction than in the previous wet bathtub sessions.
Paya seems do be doing some body shoving, as well as sticking her head under Crass... That's dominating behavior, right? There was a fair amount of squeaking during high tension moments and I'm pretty sure that most of it, if not all, was coming from Crass.

Is this the dynamic shift we were hoping for? Is there anything I should be doing?

Oh, and there was a little bit of grooming going, but it was only because they both kept getting splattered with baby food. Paya licked food off of Crass a few times, and Crass licked food off of Paya only once, but still the fact they're ok with that seems like a step in the right direction to me.


P.S. I have pics and videos, but it'll take a little while to sort through them and upload, so I'll post them later.

 

[Unepuce]

I am no intro expert, but it sure looks to me like this is going in the right direction! :joy:

Cannot wait to see pictures of the two of them snuggling together...

 

[Spork]

Time for pics and vids of the last two sessions:


I'm fairly certain that Crass has the cutest face that has ever existed. EVER.

I had to post this pic because of the tail hanging down... See, there's nothing there for her to be sitting on, so this has to be mid jump:

MY food!

I think you have some food on your head...

Yup, food on your head.

Hang on, there's still food on your head!

Now you have food on your head.

Still not great with rat body language, is this Paya demanding grooming?

Yup, cutest face ever :heart:

My food.

Videos:
Sorry there are so many, I have a hard time figuring out which ones to post.

As I previously mentioned, I'm not great with rat body language, so I could be completely misreading everything that's happening. If someone doesn't mind decoding these a little bit, that would be great :bow:

 

[jorats]

I'll have to watch the videos when I'm back home.
But from what you describe... It's coming along very well. I'll comment more after I get to see the videos.

 

[jorats]

I watched the videos and Paya is not being alpha or being dominant. She's actually quite stressed and is looking towards Crass for some comfort. It looks like Crass is giving it to her too, so that's good.

 

[Spork]

I watched the videos and Paya is not being alpha or being dominant. She's actually quite stressed and is looking towards Crass for some comfort. It looks like Crass is giving it to her too, so that's good.

Oh.

That's why I asked.


And now I'm just really confused... In the first videos I posted I was told that Paya was calm and comfortable, when to me it seemed like she was paralyzed with fear, and now I'm being told that she's the stressed one, when to me it looks like she's becoming more comfortable with the situation.

I already said that I don't know rat body language, and I admit that Paya sticking her head under Crass didn't look like dominant behavior, but in so many posts that I've read people describe that as something a rat trying to be alpha does... I have nothing else to go on.

Before, Paya would sit huddled in a corner. She wouldn't eat during wet tub intros unless she was licking food off my finger, now she eats on her own. She's only made one or two attempts to jump out of the tub, and Crass has made dozens. If my hand is within reach, Crass will instantly claw at me, trying to climb up my hand and escape the tub, but if I put my hand in front of Paya she will climb on, but slowly, like she's not desperate to get out, even if she'd rather not be there.

I spent a month getting ready for this, reading intro threads, etc, but every step of the way I've felt like a complete idiot because no matter how much I read, I still have no idea what I'm doing.

 

[handmeafish]

no amount of reading can really prepare you for whats coming. The best thing to do, is what you're doing... ask, and keep trying.
Every intro goes differently, so the list of what if's would be endless. Just keep doing what you're doing and they will be fine. You are a good ratty momma... don't stress so much.

 

[jorats]

Keep at it... it took me years to figure out rattie body language.
When a rat puts themselves under another rat as part of dominance, it's a different "slinking in". But with Paya, she's doing a lot of bruxing and boggling so she's looking for a "happy place".
In the first video, it was all new to her and no reason for her to get upset. Now, it's like "oh no, here we go again with the water".
Try a dry tub now.

 

[hopefloats]

These are awesome videos. I wish I would of tried this with templeton and dopey, it never came to mind.. If i ever had a bad intro again, I will totally do this trick with the water.