Crass/Paya Intros - Ugh.

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Thanks guys :hugs:

When I made that last post I was pretty sleep deprived and just kind of emotionally vomited all over the thread...
Like this: :sad3: :sick2: (but with thoughts) :oops:

Everyone here has been super supportive and helpful, and I don't want anyone to think that I don't appreciate it, because I really do :thankyou:
 
Didn't feel that your post was at all emotionally incoherent - it's all a valid set of concerns!

I agree with Jo - I definitely saw some happiness in there, especially in the photo preview of the last video - that kind of 'chewing' or grinding is very positive.
 
jorats said:
Don't worry, those of us that have done intros know exactly how totally nerve wracking it is.
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I will second, third and fourth that comment.......I have been to the point of tears over intros! LOL

I will never, do male intros again,
 
OK, it's been awhile... I stopped intros for a move, and I didn't post when I started up again. My camera cable is still in a box somewhere, so no pics.

I restarted intros in the wet tub, and Crass seemed to be getting territorial about the island, so I drained the water out. The seemed to do all right in a dry tub, though there were still scuffles. At this point I don't remember the specifics of the sessions, though there might be a few videos on my camera.

Currently I'm dog-sitting for my mom, and I brought the girls with me. I took the opportunity to have intros on a neutral bed (i.e. non-scary) to see how things would go. The first few sessions went ok, scuffles but no wounds, but then the last bed session we did, I couldn't even put Crass on the bed without her heading straight for Paya. It was far too stressful for me, so I moved to the tub.

They were good in the tub for awhile, so I put down a towel (they had puffed brown rice and a dish of babyfood from the beginning) and it wasn't long before there was a scuffle. Crass got low and poofy as she approached Paya, and Paya sat up with her paws off the floor. Crass started butt-shoving Paya pretty strongly, which of course led to the scuffle, which looked pretty intense, but there were no wounds that I could find. After that I gave them some time to calm down and put them back together without the towel. There haven't been any scuffles since that one (we're still going as I type this) though Crass has approached Paya a few times, only to back off after a moment of tension and possibly some minor poofyness.

Paya seems to have a few different ways of reacting when approached by Crass, she'll sit up with her paws off the floor and her head high, run away, sit hunched over staying perfectly still, or a scuffle will start immediately.

Thoughts?
Advice?
Translation of body-language?
 
Crass is a real bully. These intros are going to take some time. For some reason, I find girls are harder to reach then boys when it comes to intros. My sister does intros with girls and what works for her is to continually non stop dominate the bully. She would either put her hand over and press down or flip the girl.
You give that a try with Crass... each time she goes towards Paya with a bully attitude, flip her or press her down.
 
Oh, I forgot to mention, I have been trying to consistently dominate Crass when she's bullying. Sometimes she backs off, and sometimes she just gets more bratty.

So far since the scuffle earlier this session there still hasn't been any more. Several times I've noticed Crass will approach Paya, they'll look at each other, and then Crass will go away and Paya will go back to grooming.
 
Spork said:
Oh, I forgot to mention, I have been trying to consistently dominate Crass when she's bullying. Sometimes she backs off, and sometimes she just gets more bratty.

So far since the scuffle earlier this session there still hasn't been any more. Several times I've noticed Crass will approach Paya, they'll look at each other, and then Crass will go away and Paya will go back to grooming.
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This is good. This is progress. :)
 
The never did end up living together.

I kept trying for a little while after I stopped posting, but after 2-3 months I never got out of neutral ground, so I gave up. I also moved across the country, so my life was to chaotic to focus on intros anyway.

Lately I've been thinking it's time to try again.
Summary of the situation:
I have two spayed girls. Crass is a fat dumbo agouti who has lived alone her whole life, and is now about 27 months, but still very energetic. Paya is a sweet little beige hoodie, I don't know as much about her age and history, but the girl I got her from said she came from a hoarding situation, and I've had her age estimated at about 18 months.
When I tried intros before Crass was nothing but a bully, she left gashes on Paya a few times, and even bit me once when I grabbed her mid-lunge. Crass would get huffy and poofy at Paya, side stepping and generally causing trouble. Paya's body language is more subtle and much more difficult for me to read, but she would usually avoid Crass, and hunch up in a corner somewhere.

They have not met face to face since this summer. They have been living in the same room since April, but Crass will still get huffy if their cages or carriers are next to each other. They now live in a Feisty Ferret that has been split in two, but just yesterday morning Crass was huffing and puffing at Paya through the ceiling/floor (Paya was on the floor in a corner, and Crass was in her hammock that is right below that corner, huffing and puffing and scrabbling at the ceiling and bars. Paya was more calm, just sniffing with her nose poking through the bars).

I've been swapping cages for about a week now (possibly more, the days kind of blur together) and I'm wondering how long I need to continue before moving to the next step. When I put Crass in Paya's cage she stomps around kicking and shoving things, acting very belligerent. When I put her back in her own cage (after Paya has been there) she stomps around a little, but not nearly as aggressively. When I put Paya in either cage, she cautiously explores, checking every hiding place like something might jump out at her. The other thing that I've noticed is that when they're in opposite cages they'll sleep in the other's favorite hammock (as in, when they are each in their own half, Paya lives in the cube and Crass live in the bunk bed, but when I swap, Crass sleeps in Paya's cube, and Paya sleeps in Crass's bunk bed).
 
I would do that for a bit to see if crass chills out. Since she had a HUGE issue with paya to begin with. Have you had them out holding them together? or tried any type of meetings out of the cage? Does she still turn into an raging lunatic when she sees paya?
 
hopefloats said:
I would do that for a bit to see if crass chills out. Since she had a HUGE issue with paya to begin with. Have you had them out holding them together? or tried any type of meetings out of the cage? Does she still turn into an raging lunatic when she sees paya?
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Well, they haven't met face to face since this summer (at least not without cage bars between them) and she still gets huffy and puffy if they are in carriers next to each other. And there was the moment yesterday morning that I mention, where she was angry through the ceiling. When I did intros before, I did try having them both on me at one point to see if that helped... It didn't, Crass would still go for Paya if she could see her.
 
Rats can be aggressive through bars, which is natural, it's a territorial instinct and doesn't mean they might be like that when meeting face to face but do take it very slow and on a very neutral ground. Who would have throughout such an old bitty still at 27 months old.
 
Oh man. This is crazy. And awesome. Just did and intro session. Started off with and island in a wet tub, but ended up draining the water out about half an hour in. I was a bit nervous, because when I would get to that point before, Crass would start hassling Paya as soon as she'd groomed the water off. that is not what happened. I am stunned. Watch the vid:

(And I'm sorry about the music, that song is a bit... Odd. )
 
jorats said:
Paya was the one harassing Crass? Finally! lol
I would continue with that. It might just work this time.
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I know! :eeek: I was not expecting this at all... And she was SO POOFY, it was ridiculous :giggle:

I didn't notice Crass get poofed up at all, I'm still in shock. How can my feisty Crass be letting sweet little Paya chase her around? I must have slipped into an alternate reality :lol:
 
So, with intros I was prepared for Crass to be the bully again, and was planning my strategies based on that... Is there anything I should do differently now that Paya is the one trying to be in charge? (If that's what's happening). What should I do if Crass starts fighting back? Would I dominate Crass to encourage her to let Paya take over? Or would I dominate Paya to tell her to back off a bit? I'd only get involved if they actually start fighting, but I'd like to know what I should do before that happens. (Hopefully it doesn't, but with their history, I'd like to be prepared.)

(For the record, I'm still pretty clueless about alpha dynamics.)
 
How old is Paya? I don't know if I'd dominate Crass, she's pretty old and I wouldn't put to much stress on her. If you want to lay your hand over her, to give her comfort with a gentle even press down, that would be better for her.
 
jorats said:
How old is Paya? I don't know if I'd dominate Crass, she's pretty old and I wouldn't put to much stress on her. If you want to lay your hand over her, to give her comfort with a gentle even press down, that would be better for her.
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Paya... I have no idea how old she is really, but I showed Shelagh a video of her walking around a couple months ago and she said Paya looked 16-18 months.
It's still hard for my to think of Crass as old, she's hardly slowed down... She still runs around like crazy during out time.
 

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