Crass/Paya Intros - Ugh.

[Spork]

I'm in over my head :sad3:

A few weeks ago I tried a bathtub intro. After a few minutes Crass got puffy, started side stepping, and then jumped on Paya. I separated them, and then put them back in after a time out, and there were no more scuffles (they mostly ignored each other), but I realized I was probably rushing into things, so I went back to cage and hammock swapping.

After asking for advice and doing more reading I decided to give it another try tonight. It did not go well.

I put down a towel and a dish of babyfood (organic blueberry and apple) and added the rats.

Here's a video started immediately after putting them in the tub:
(at one point you hear me say "Oh god", but don't worry it's not because anyone was hurt)


I didn't notice any injuries, but I couldn't keep going after that, I was too overwhelmed.

Please help... I don't know what to do :cry:

Edit: Sorry the clip is so short, I panicked and separated them instead of actually taking a useful video.

 

[victoria]

I would say now is the time to put them into a scary situation so that they are too stressed to worry about attacking each other. With my guys, a trip in the carrier to the park and back (I'm watching them like a hawk) works, but that may not work with Crass because she is so used to going out. You can take a rectangular dish pan (or something similar), put it upside down in the bath tub, and turn the water on so that the dish pan is an island to get the same effect. (It won't work with mine because they can jump out of the tub with ease :s) Maybe a loud noise like a vacuum would have the same effect.

It's a good technique for breaking the ice, then you can progress to neutral ground intros and so on. I'm not sure if I'm explaining it clearly enough, but it's worked for me a couple of times with difficult groups.

 

[handmeafish]

I made this video for Spork and she said it was really helpful so I'm posting it here. Please excuse my terrible hair, and my Pj's... I made this at like 2am. Its also kind of long FYI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCgnbRZmFF4

 

[Spork]

I would say now is the time to put them into a scary situation so that they are too stressed to worry about attacking each other. With my guys, a trip in the carrier to the park and back (I'm watching them like a hawk) works, but that may not work with Crass because she is so used to going out. You can take a rectangular dish pan (or something similar), put it upside down in the bath tub, and turn the water on so that the dish pan is an island to get the same effect. (It won't work with mine because they can jump out of the tub with ease :s) Maybe a loud noise like a vacuum would have the same effect.

It's a good technique for breaking the ice, then you can progress to neutral ground intros and so on. I'm not sure if I'm explaining it clearly enough, but it's worked for me a couple of times with difficult groups.

Thanks Victoria!

So would I put them in the tub and then turn on the water, or would I put a few inches of water in the tub and then add the rats? If I did add the rats after the water, would I put them directly on the island or put them in the water?

I made this video for Spork and she said it was really helpful so I'm posting it here. Please excuse my terrible hair, and my Pj's... I made this at like 2am. Its also kind of long FYI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCgnbRZmFF4

It's true, I've read descriptions, and I've seen a few vids, but it really helped to have the description happening while the scuffle was happening :nod: . And it makes me think I over-reacted a little, though I am still concerned about how quickly my girls got into it.




This is all so new to me, I've never really seen adult rats interact with each other in person, and I don't know if I'm strong enough to just sit there and watch while my little girls roll around squeaking. I'm going to try the water thing, hopefully that'll help. I also just trimmed Crass's claws, because I'm more worried about her hurting Paya than the other way around.

 

[jorats]

Any chance you can have Crass neutered? that would make everything easier but if not, all is not lost, it's not that bad, Crass need to learn his manners. It's good that nobody was hurt during that scuffle, that means they aren't serious about attacking.
These are two boys? And how old?

 

[Spork]

Any chance you can have Crass neutered? that would make everything easier but if not, all is not lost, it's not that bad, Crass need to learn his manners. It's good that nobody was hurt during that scuffle, that means they aren't serious about attacking.
These are two boys? And how old?

They're both girls :giggle: and both spayed.

Crass is 20-21 months. I have no idea how old Paya is, the girl I got her from said she came from a hoarder, so there's not even really an estimate, but I've had her for a month, and her previous person had her for three months.

 

[jorats]

Oh boy. It had to be that combo. lol You are going to have to stay with it but be fast and watchful. I've noticed that if a female decides to be territorial, then you've got a fight on your hands. Give me an aggressive boy any day over an aggressive girl. lol but stick with it!

 

[hopefloats]

Oh boy. It had to be that combo. lol You are going to have to stay with it but be fast and watchful. I've noticed that if a female decides to be territorial, then you've got a fight on your hands. Give me an aggressive boy any day over an aggressive girl. lol but stick with it!

Poor spork! i am sure that IS NOT what she wanted to hear! lol

I told her to watch it after the first fight in a meeting, to see how it goes after that, not to stop it so fast. She is doing victoria's idea on the bath water.. So hopefully

That is funny that you said that jo, I thought by the size of Crass she was a he too lol

Pika did that, but calmed down after a bit, Spork is really nervous about this, so if you have some good pointers on this intro, she would love it.

 

[jorats]

Doing the scary place is a good place to start.

 

[Spork]

Bathtub with water:


:joy: :dance: :joy: :dance:

We kept going for about another five minutes after the video ends, but it was mostly just Crass trying to escape and Paya huddled on the corner of the island. No scuffles at all.

So, how many more times should I do this with water? Next time I should see if they're ok on the bathroom floor together? If not, put them back in the tub? Should I keep it short, or try and go for longer?

Thanks guys!!!!

 

[handmeafish]

They did so good on the island together!!! thats the trauma solidarity i was talking about
I'd try the dry tub again, with out the towel, and with food... food they can't resist.

 

[victoria]

Yay! I know it's sad to do that to them but it was the only thing that worked with my aggressive girls. (Girls in general are SUPER easy to intro.) I would do it once or twice more (maybe you can put some noms on the island next time) and then move to neutral ground intros.

 

[Spork]

They did so good on the island together!!! thats the trauma solidarity i was talking about
I'd try the dry tub again, with out the towel, and with food... food they can't resist.

Unfortunately Paya is pretty good a resisting food. Just now, for example, I had her on the couch with me and offered her some baby food to make up for scaring her, and she was completely uninterested in the food until she finished grooming the water off. Somehow I think that she wouldn't want to eat from the same dish as Crass until she knows she won't be attacked. I don't know for sure though.

Yay! I know it's sad to do that to them but it was the only thing that worked with my aggressive girls. (Girls in general are SUPER easy to intro.) I would do it once or twice more (maybe you can put some noms on the island next time) and then move to neutral ground intros.

Can I try again after work (in about six hours), or should I wait until tomorrow? I think I will go with water again, I'd like to avoid scuffles for my own sanity, I know they'll have to figure things out a little more forcefully at some point, but I'm definitely not ready for that, so I'll stick with the water for now. Can I let them out on the bathroom floor if they're being good?

Thanks again!

 

[victoria]

Can I try again after work (in about six hours), or should I wait until tomorrow?

I would wait until tomorrow, it may too much in one day, but you are in a better position to make that judgement.

Can I net them out on the bathroom floor if they're being good?

I'm guessing you mean can you do neutral ground intros on the bathroom floor? I do that, anywhere is fine as long as it's new to both of them.

 

[Spork]

Can I try again after work (in about six hours), or should I wait until tomorrow?

I would wait until tomorrow, it may too much in one day, but you are in a better position to make that judgement.

Can I net them out on the bathroom floor if they're being good?

I'm guessing you mean can you do neutral ground intros on the bathroom floor? I do that, anywhere is fine as long as it's new to both of them.

I mean, if they're being good in the tub of water, can I take them right out and put them on the floor? So, go from scary to neutral in the same session?

 

[victoria]

I don't see why not. I would definitely offer food there though. Don't worry about Paya being too scared to eat at this point, she will work up the nerve as she and Crass sort things out.

 

[hopefloats]

I would do a few sessions like that with the water. What you want is crass to be ok with being around paya like she was on the basket. What is showing her that, is paya getting on the basket while she is there, or crass getting on there while paya is there. it is almost like you have to fool them into getting along. going to a neutral place and cages they will have scuffles most likely. I think for your sanity i would do a couple of the bathtub meetings like this. That will help you build up your confidence in them for doing the intros. Do 2-3 days like this then try putting them on the floor, but keep in mind you might have scuffles and it is pretty normal. I always test the water so to speak, the best way to see if they will be ok on on the floor is to try lol and sadly it is about the only way.

Like Victoria said, you can be the judge of it is too much for them or you Some of my rats I have found multiple short sessions best while with other, i do the scary then move them to neutral. but with every step i have a scuffle or two. Generally the scuffles will last for a few meetings, then they all find their spot in the group.

Like with my boys and girls, i went fast, because Templeton was a hump fest, so in order to get past the constant violating of my girls, I made them get through the initial meetings, which for them was humping. To stop that, I left them together after 3 xrated meetings to get pinning part going, then they went to being rat piles of boys and girls sleeping. Sometimes you have to let them get the scuffles/humping out of the way, so they can move forward.

I am so excited for you. I am glad the water went better I know the feelings you had about the intros. This is good to see, crass is just making it know she is the queen............

 

[jorats]

Have you tried dominating Crass when she's being a bully to Paya? You gently pinch between her shoulder blades while pressing her head down towards the floor. Crass needs to be put in her place.
You can do the water again or dry tub, you can do water then move to dry tub. You can also do as many intros as you want in a day and for as long as you want. The more they meet, the longer they meet, the better.
It's clear that Crass is a big bully and in a scary situation, she needed Paya's calm energy which is why Paya was allowed on the basket. Paya did not seem too worried, not from the water nor from Crass which is a very very good start.

 

[Spork]

OK, here's what I've figured out: I'm really bad at reading rat body language. I don't know if I've mentioned in this thread, but Crass has lived alone her who life, so I've never seen two rats interact before. Sure, I've seen videos, but it's so much different when I'm part of the interaction. Unless it's really obvious, I can't yet recognize dominance/aggression/bullying until it turns into a fight. Take the first video for example, others can tell exactly what's about to happen, I can't. This is all new to me.
This is me over this intro: :sad3: :gaah: :wallbang: anic: :sad3:
Just my luck, my first ever intro and I had to end up with a bully.
Thank you guys so much for helping me, I couldn't do his without you :bow:

Have you tried dominating Crass when she's being a bully to Paya? You gently pinch between her shoulder blades while pressing her head down towards the floor. Crass needs to be put in her place.

I haven't, I've heard it mentioned in other intro threads, but I don't really know when I'm supposed to do it. After she gets snippy with Paya? When she looks like she's about to get snippy? Right in the middle of the interaction if I can?

 

[Moon]

And keep in mind when you are preparing do to the intro... if you are stressed, they are more likely to be stressed! So don't let your worries get away with you, get as calm as you can before starting, and don't freak out if it doesn't go well.