dspch911
Senior Member
jorats said:
Oh yea, what jorats said - Oliver got my pointer finger on Oct 18th still cannot bend it properly and it still hurts especially if I try to open a can (w/pull tab) I now have to use my middle finger - awkward
Vicious rat, or just confused? - SNIP TIME FOR CASS!
- Thread starter odoriusagi
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Oh yea, what jorats said - Oliver got my pointer finger on Oct 18th still cannot bend it properly and it still hurts especially if I try to open a can (w/pull tab) I now have to use my middle finger - awkward
odoriusagi
Member
Thank you for the advice. Again, this is my first time with rats. I don't mean to make mistakes with them, I just want them to be happy and healthy and know they have a mom and dad to love and trust.
All of the bites that drew blood were surprises. For example, when he drew blood this evening, he had climbed into my lap, found my fist, and didn't bother with the nipping - he attacked with a punching forward lunge. I am nervous about his reactions to hands, and I offered my hand to him for the sake of you and the others watching the video. After eating his treats, having rat talks with Castielle and marking out his area, each evening, he comes into my lap and looks for a hand to bite, and when I hold my hand up so he can't get to it, he stretches as high as he can after it, and has jumped up trying to bite. It's almost like he's LOOKING for a hand for the sole reason of biting it at this particular point.
Almost all of my interactions with Mimo since last Saturday, whether Castielle is there or not, start out with him being curious and gentle but not particularly friendly, and then end up with a surprise bite - a surprise, because maybe he had been grooming or sniffing before. He doesn't bite skin at all unless it's on fingers. And again, for almost a week, he seemed very quiet and gentle until he delivered an unexpected, violent bite, and kept on looking for hands and fingers to attack afterward.
Some comments/questions:
I should scoop him up while he is marking his area?
There is a lot more in the cage; I'd taken it out to refresh the liners just before the video, and finished with the cleanup afterward.
I'm not sure of their ages. Their original owners claimed when they took them to the SPCA that they had been together all of their lives. But they also claimed that Castielle (white) is the alpha and the aggressor, and that Mimo (black) is the subordinate. They were abandoned because they were "fighting" with each other.
I understand that there were no real fights during this video. It was a very nice playtime. The ones that end up with Castielle bleeding usually happen in the early morning hours with a great big squeal and a clatter, and we run into the room to find Castielle hiding somewhere and Mimo puffed up. I'm not sure at all what the actual fight looked like, just that Castielle has scabs on his rump and a bleeding tail.
The two bites that I showed on my index finger have been treated aggressively, but the fingernail is still cracked in half. Below are pictures of the one on the fingertip when it was fresh. The one that caused the bruise happened just afterward.
All of the bites that drew blood were surprises. For example, when he drew blood this evening, he had climbed into my lap, found my fist, and didn't bother with the nipping - he attacked with a punching forward lunge. I am nervous about his reactions to hands, and I offered my hand to him for the sake of you and the others watching the video. After eating his treats, having rat talks with Castielle and marking out his area, each evening, he comes into my lap and looks for a hand to bite, and when I hold my hand up so he can't get to it, he stretches as high as he can after it, and has jumped up trying to bite. It's almost like he's LOOKING for a hand for the sole reason of biting it at this particular point.
Almost all of my interactions with Mimo since last Saturday, whether Castielle is there or not, start out with him being curious and gentle but not particularly friendly, and then end up with a surprise bite - a surprise, because maybe he had been grooming or sniffing before. He doesn't bite skin at all unless it's on fingers. And again, for almost a week, he seemed very quiet and gentle until he delivered an unexpected, violent bite, and kept on looking for hands and fingers to attack afterward.
Some comments/questions:
I should scoop him up while he is marking his area?
There is a lot more in the cage; I'd taken it out to refresh the liners just before the video, and finished with the cleanup afterward.
I'm not sure of their ages. Their original owners claimed when they took them to the SPCA that they had been together all of their lives. But they also claimed that Castielle (white) is the alpha and the aggressor, and that Mimo (black) is the subordinate. They were abandoned because they were "fighting" with each other.
I understand that there were no real fights during this video. It was a very nice playtime. The ones that end up with Castielle bleeding usually happen in the early morning hours with a great big squeal and a clatter, and we run into the room to find Castielle hiding somewhere and Mimo puffed up. I'm not sure at all what the actual fight looked like, just that Castielle has scabs on his rump and a bleeding tail.
The two bites that I showed on my index finger have been treated aggressively, but the fingernail is still cracked in half. Below are pictures of the one on the fingertip when it was fresh. The one that caused the bruise happened just afterward.
dspch911
Senior Member
Maybe you should try not handing them treats, but put them in a bowl or something. I have no idea - I don't know if they remember a bad experience with hands? I know they don't like things coming at them from above that is why we scoop, but you said you're not doing anything. Perhaps he's done doing his "scenting" business and looking for another treat or a raw steak - I know bad joke, but that is what he used to say about Oliver until his neuter took effect and my precious boy returned. Do you notice anything different about him when he attacks? I ask because with Oliver I could tell when not to go anywhere near him - when he was "Damon" his alter ego he got this blank stare like the lights were on, but no one was home. We knew not to go ANYWHERE within striking range. He flew out of the cage once to latch on to my fiance's hand. He struck like a snake!! When we took him in to get his neuter I warned the vet about him and he was fine until the second time the tech went to get him out of the cage and - STRIKE! - sent her to the hospital for stitches. Sometimes their hormones are just uncontrollable.
I thought you probably had more for the cage and perhaps it was else where. We all have to learn about are ratties and this places is the best place to do so.
I thought you probably had more for the cage and perhaps it was else where. We all have to learn about are ratties and this places is the best place to do so.
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
You must have a high pain threshold. Those are good bites on your finger.
Ok, so we are seeing a pattern with Mimo. Don't scoop him when he's rubbing, you need to scoop him before he does that. You need to change his mind, have a jingle ball or a feather cat toy so you can start to play with him before he's about to rub. I'm guessing he's about 10 to 14 months old. No more giving him your hand! When he climbs on you, put him back down using a towel. He can't have another opportunity to bite you. Each time he's allowed to bite, it actually reinforces that behaviour.
For Mimo and Castielle. Get smaller treats, cut a cheerio in half. Each time Mimo goes near Castielle but chooses to turn away, both should get half a cheerio. This will reinforce his good choice of turning away, no scuffling.
Respect Mimo's cage for now. Don't go in it when he's there. Or offer him an amazing treat when you go in. Make sure he's busy and get out of there before he's done. He can't bite you again.
He's not puffy so he's not aggressive. He's just misguided and stressed out. But you are doing a great job with him so far. Those two are really lucky to have you!
Ok, so we are seeing a pattern with Mimo. Don't scoop him when he's rubbing, you need to scoop him before he does that. You need to change his mind, have a jingle ball or a feather cat toy so you can start to play with him before he's about to rub. I'm guessing he's about 10 to 14 months old. No more giving him your hand! When he climbs on you, put him back down using a towel. He can't have another opportunity to bite you. Each time he's allowed to bite, it actually reinforces that behaviour.
For Mimo and Castielle. Get smaller treats, cut a cheerio in half. Each time Mimo goes near Castielle but chooses to turn away, both should get half a cheerio. This will reinforce his good choice of turning away, no scuffling.
Respect Mimo's cage for now. Don't go in it when he's there. Or offer him an amazing treat when you go in. Make sure he's busy and get out of there before he's done. He can't bite you again.
He's not puffy so he's not aggressive. He's just misguided and stressed out. But you are doing a great job with him so far. Those two are really lucky to have you!
dspch911
Senior Member
jorats said:
:joy: I agree :joy:
odoriusagi
Member
Thank you so much for watching my silly, chatty video and offering your words of wisdom! 
I watched it myself and cringed! So much baby talk, but that's just how I am with animals. :emb:
Even though I've been trying my best to read up on rat behavior, understanding their body language is not intuitive for me after just a week and a half. It's really helpful for you to "translate" what they're communicating so that I get it. I thought that Mimo tucking his head under Castielle was to indicate his submission, when in reality, he's the boss, as Jo explained. He's bigger too, although I'm not sure if size/weight has any impact on whether or not a rat gets to be the alpha?
I have to say that I am SO relieved by what you've said. I want to have a normal alpha rat - misguided and stressed can be resolved. After that first big bite, I was just so worried that I had an incurably aggressive and/or abused rat, which would be very tough for us as beginners to work with. Now that I have more info and observations to work with and the patterns have been pointed out to me, I trust Castielle so much more and understand why Mimo behaves the way he does. It's tough when everything is a mystery, because you don't know what to expect!
I watched it myself and cringed! So much baby talk, but that's just how I am with animals. :emb: Even though I've been trying my best to read up on rat behavior, understanding their body language is not intuitive for me after just a week and a half. It's really helpful for you to "translate" what they're communicating so that I get it. I thought that Mimo tucking his head under Castielle was to indicate his submission, when in reality, he's the boss, as Jo explained. He's bigger too, although I'm not sure if size/weight has any impact on whether or not a rat gets to be the alpha?
I have to say that I am SO relieved by what you've said. I want to have a normal alpha rat - misguided and stressed can be resolved. After that first big bite, I was just so worried that I had an incurably aggressive and/or abused rat, which would be very tough for us as beginners to work with. Now that I have more info and observations to work with and the patterns have been pointed out to me, I trust Castielle so much more and understand why Mimo behaves the way he does. It's tough when everything is a mystery, because you don't know what to expect!
victoria
Well-Known Member
Most of this is a repeat of what has been said before but my browser wouldn't cooperate last night so he goes:
The interactions between the boys are pretty normal for adult intact males, at least by my standards. Castielle looks a little defensive at some points but he's not terrorized. At the shelter, I thought Castielle was the dominant rat but it doesn't seem that way in the video. It's not usual for the alpha rat to be a little more reserved and on edge - they tend to worry more and be preoccupied keeping watch over their buddies.
The boys were surrendered because their owner moved out of his parents house and left them behind. They were terrified to even touch them so they brought them to us. They told us Castielle was bullying Mimo so they were split by staff at reception but I put them together to see how they interacted to see if they actually were aggressive. At the time, it really did seem like Castielle was the alpha and Mimo was very careful around him but Castielle was not at all aggressive. When I put them in the cage, Mimo slept out in the open for several hours until he mustered up the courage to join Castielle in the hammock. After that, we all made a point to check on them and observe them over the course of a week or so and there weren't any issues between them. When I told my colleagues Mimo was having issues, one did say Castielle had a tendency to mouth people sometimes and the foster mentioned that as well when I asked him but at the time I did not know about the other history and I didn't put much stock into what the foster said. In any case, Castielle is not the issue here.
When a rat goes to bite you, pulling your finger away often makes it worse. It's hard not to do because it's so instinctual but rats bite and pull harder when you pull away. If you squeak as he's biting instead, that will make a much bigger different.
Are you cleaning their cage every day? If it doesn't smell like urine, you can try cleaning it a bit less frequently so Mimo doesn't feel like he has to mark. The marking in the play area isn't horrible, some rats really huff and puff when they do that and he didn't seem too worked up.
I wouldn't cover the cage with anything. If the rats want to get some dark, quiet time, they can go into a hut for some. Not only that, you may end up with a shredded blanket Watch the curtain behind the cage as well, if it's not 2-3" away or further, pieces of it may end up inside the cage.
The interactions between the boys are pretty normal for adult intact males, at least by my standards. Castielle looks a little defensive at some points but he's not terrorized. At the shelter, I thought Castielle was the dominant rat but it doesn't seem that way in the video. It's not usual for the alpha rat to be a little more reserved and on edge - they tend to worry more and be preoccupied keeping watch over their buddies.
The boys were surrendered because their owner moved out of his parents house and left them behind. They were terrified to even touch them so they brought them to us. They told us Castielle was bullying Mimo so they were split by staff at reception but I put them together to see how they interacted to see if they actually were aggressive. At the time, it really did seem like Castielle was the alpha and Mimo was very careful around him but Castielle was not at all aggressive. When I put them in the cage, Mimo slept out in the open for several hours until he mustered up the courage to join Castielle in the hammock. After that, we all made a point to check on them and observe them over the course of a week or so and there weren't any issues between them. When I told my colleagues Mimo was having issues, one did say Castielle had a tendency to mouth people sometimes and the foster mentioned that as well when I asked him but at the time I did not know about the other history and I didn't put much stock into what the foster said. In any case, Castielle is not the issue here.
When a rat goes to bite you, pulling your finger away often makes it worse. It's hard not to do because it's so instinctual but rats bite and pull harder when you pull away. If you squeak as he's biting instead, that will make a much bigger different.
Are you cleaning their cage every day? If it doesn't smell like urine, you can try cleaning it a bit less frequently so Mimo doesn't feel like he has to mark. The marking in the play area isn't horrible, some rats really huff and puff when they do that and he didn't seem too worked up.
I wouldn't cover the cage with anything. If the rats want to get some dark, quiet time, they can go into a hut for some. Not only that, you may end up with a shredded blanket
Watch the curtain behind the cage as well, if it's not 2-3" away or further, pieces of it may end up inside the cage.
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
I also want to point out that Mimo is not really puffy, he's not displaying severe territorial behaviour. Watching the video, I see well adjusted rats, normal siblings doing normal boy behaviours. I'm baffled that he actually goes to bite you. He gives no indication of wanting to do that. Biting in the cage is normal for rats who have been moved around a lot and are fearful of yet another change. But doing that outside the cage without the usual chattering of the teeth, become a huge puff ball, zoning out, lunging and biting...that's not right and I fear it might be due to immersion. Immersion/flooding will cause an animal to shut down or to react without realizing. That's what I'm seeing with Mimo. He's reacting for no reason and no accompanied body language.
odoriusagi
Member
victoria said:
Yes, I assumed that Castielle was the alpha, and basing my understanding of alpha behavior on his behaviors, rather than on Mimo's.
victoria said:
We were changing the liners every day, and then switched to once every two days (after that, there's just too much pee!). I haven't noticed much of a change in Mimo's marking behavior, but then again, it hasn't been long since we started doing that.
victoria said:I wouldn't cover the cage with anything. If the rats want to get some dark, quiet time, they can go into a hut for some. Not only that, you may end up with a shredded blanket
No worries - I had incredibly destructive (but so loveable) bunnies and have experienced the disappointment of losing handmade curtains to their gnawing. The cage is kept maybe a foot away; I'd moved it to sweep the tossed out litter that had collected.
jorats said:
I would agree with you, but he showed this behavior (the random biting without any signs of aggression) before our single immersion session, which didn't seem to particularly faze him. We sat with him for two hours on the bed and whenever he did bite, we would say no. Because he's not an aggressive guy, there was no lunging or chasing or attacking, either from him or from us. It was always the same story - Mimo played around on the bed, explored his hut and our arms, found a finger and bit without warning. No puffing or chattering until awhile of him biting, us saying "no" and challenging him, and then he had a puffing/chattering/rubbing/biting tantrum before calming down and being gentle again. He hasn't done that since, but now that we know that he is the alpha and is behaving accordingly, we will leave him be.
I'm also baffled at his "non-aggressive" biting during playtime. Sometimes he licks, sometimes he sniffs, and sometimes he takes a chunk out. Like dspch911 said... Maybe he has a meat craving? But in all seriousness, could he be play nipping and then we make the mistake of reinforcing the behavior?
dspch911
Senior Member
Kona normal
Kona puffed up
Size has absolutely nothing to do with who will be the alpha. This site has the best experts to help with learning about rats. I too thought I had read up and knew everything I needed to know before I got my boys. Thought I was prepared, didn't want to go in blindly. I was so wrong and without this site and the help I got here - well, I don't know where my boys would be. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the people on this site the their vast knowledge - they have helped me out of a couple difficult situation. In no time you will be just fine and able to offer your own advice. Hang in there.
Kona puffed up
Size has absolutely nothing to do with who will be the alpha. This site has the best experts to help with learning about rats. I too thought I had read up and knew everything I needed to know before I got my boys. Thought I was prepared, didn't want to go in blindly. I was so wrong and without this site and the help I got here - well, I don't know where my boys would be. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the people on this site the their vast knowledge - they have helped me out of a couple difficult situation. In no time you will be just fine and able to offer your own advice. Hang in there.
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
Yes, I do believe you might have inadvertantly reinforced the behaviour. But that should be easily corrected. Personally, I would still do the neuter since you say he did indeed do the chattering before. Chattering is the main indication of an extremely stressed out rat. Chattering is not the same as bruxxing, but close, it's like they are loudly snapping/bruxxing uncontrollably. You can even sometimes see them shake.
odoriusagi
Member
Yes, we are planning on the neuter, probably next week after his initial examination. It seems like he's very preoccupied with his territory and marking/protecting it. I'm also concerned about the bites on Castielle's tail, since they weren't there after a rattie squeal explosion that woke up my husband and I out of a sound sleep the other day. Maybe he will mellow down and they will both be less on edge.
odoriusagi
Member
Welp, I'm absolutely going for a neuter.
Tonight during their play/treat time, Mimo was as usual, you know the story now. But I had to put him back in his cage, because he started to puff up and nip me (and I wish my husband had been home to record it!)... Anywhere. He'd casually saunter around me, nipping any bodily topography that just happened to be sticking out - an elbow, a wrist, a knuckle, etc. I squeaked and squeaked, and he nipped and nipped. The louder I squeaked, the harder he nipped. It was the last straw when he snuck around me when I was giving Castielle a treat and bit the crap out of the back of my arm.
He spends most of playtime marking all of the toys and hideouts in the play area, and then seems to decide that the entire area is his and that I shouldn't be sitting in it. He really wants me to leave. That's really the only thing I can think of, unless he just gets a kick out of nipping sensitive areas. :gaah:
He's not aggressive. Just... insistent. About telling me in no uncertain terms that he doesn't want me there. I got the feeling that, whenever he nipped and I squeaked, he's like... OK, now she should get the message. Oh wait. She's not moving. Here, I'll try harder. ::CHOMP:: OK, now she TOTALLY got that message, that was a really loud squeak. Hm. She's still not moving. Better find a location with more nerves.
Tonight during their play/treat time, Mimo was as usual, you know the story now. But I had to put him back in his cage, because he started to puff up and nip me (and I wish my husband had been home to record it!)... Anywhere. He'd casually saunter around me, nipping any bodily topography that just happened to be sticking out - an elbow, a wrist, a knuckle, etc. I squeaked and squeaked, and he nipped and nipped. The louder I squeaked, the harder he nipped. It was the last straw when he snuck around me when I was giving Castielle a treat and bit the crap out of the back of my arm.
He spends most of playtime marking all of the toys and hideouts in the play area, and then seems to decide that the entire area is his and that I shouldn't be sitting in it. He really wants me to leave. That's really the only thing I can think of, unless he just gets a kick out of nipping sensitive areas. :gaah:
He's not aggressive. Just... insistent. About telling me in no uncertain terms that he doesn't want me there. I got the feeling that, whenever he nipped and I squeaked, he's like... OK, now she should get the message. Oh wait. She's not moving. Here, I'll try harder. ::CHOMP:: OK, now she TOTALLY got that message, that was a really loud squeak. Hm. She's still not moving. Better find a location with more nerves.
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
I think you are reading him pretty good now. He's done with humans and all his changes. I have two boys like that. I didn't mind the nipping on me so much but when Lincoln started to beat up on poor Pip, I had him neutered and he's a gentle boy. He is still no approachable but I'm fine with that. I respect his space and he gets along well with the others. His brother Percy was a biter/nipper but I am always too fast for him to displace my limbs. lol but now that Percy is extremely sick, he doesn't do it anymore. If he was healthy, I'd have him neutered too. I kind of wish I could have Percy back the way he was. I'd take his nipping me over him being so very sick.
odoriusagi
Member
After a week of progress (nips only, no blood), I was viciously attacked last night during free range time - he went after a knuckle and there was a crunch in the silence as his teeth scraped bone (husband was horrified) - you could actually see the knucklebone if you opened the deep 1 cm cut he made with almost surgical precision. Luckily, first aid was administered immediately and after bleeding for what seemed like forever (why do fingers bleed so profusely?!) it sealed up overnight. It is slightly swollen this morning with a deep ache, but it does not appear infected. I'll keep a close eye on it, but unfortunately, Mimo bites are old hat now. I must be the most bitten-up, battle scarred two-weeks-old new rat owner ever - which I will accept as the result of my own stupidity, as I get optimistic after a few days of relatively good behavior (for him) and allow him to approach me.
There wasn't any warning or any provocation - I'd just been feeding him his favorite treats, peas and yogurt, in my lap. Why is he so unpredictable?
He's almost constantly puffy now whenever he's out of his cage, and very moody. Castielle is often so happy about escaping Mimo's company that he launches forth out of his cage with a treat in his mouth to sit on my shoulder and eat it in peace. When Mimo starts rubbing all over, huffing and nipping, we put him in time out (carrier), where he sulks and foofs, chews and grunts. After last night's mega crunch, he was in there until he de-puffed, stopped sulking, stopped biting and finally fell asleep. He was confused and withdrawn when we put him back in the cage - it's like Jekyll and Hyde.
Hubby did some research and found that estimates regarding rats as aggressive as Mimo range from 1/30 to 1/100 rats. Why did this behavior only come out now, when he finally found a forever home?
There wasn't any warning or any provocation - I'd just been feeding him his favorite treats, peas and yogurt, in my lap. Why is he so unpredictable?
He's almost constantly puffy now whenever he's out of his cage, and very moody. Castielle is often so happy about escaping Mimo's company that he launches forth out of his cage with a treat in his mouth to sit on my shoulder and eat it in peace. When Mimo starts rubbing all over, huffing and nipping, we put him in time out (carrier), where he sulks and foofs, chews and grunts. After last night's mega crunch, he was in there until he de-puffed, stopped sulking, stopped biting and finally fell asleep. He was confused and withdrawn when we put him back in the cage - it's like Jekyll and Hyde.
Hubby did some research and found that estimates regarding rats as aggressive as Mimo range from 1/30 to 1/100 rats. Why did this behavior only come out now, when he finally found a forever home?
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
The way I look at it is that he's had enough and can't take anymore changes. He's settled and he doesn't want to go anywhere else and nobody can make him. You are going to see such a change in him after his neuter. We had one like that, during out time, he would run and lunge himself into the air to attack us. Those rats are genetically aggressive, add to that the many changes in their life, they just snap and their high anxiety tells them to "fight".
I had a huge bite done to my knuckle, those hurt so bad! I still have the scar from many years ago and once in a while. I can still feet a slight pain.
I had a huge bite done to my knuckle, those hurt so bad! I still have the scar from many years ago and once in a while. I can still feet a slight pain.
odoriusagi
Member
Thank you, Jo. Do you think his "snap" was something that I could have prevented, or caused by something I didn't do right? I'd be heartbroken to inadvertently have this happen to another rat because of my ignorance.
dspch911
Senior Member
Oh yea, that is the kind of bite Oliver gave me!!! Still cannot bend my finger all the way - and the top of my knuckle is so sensitive I cannot touch it on anything or the pain is excruciating!!! That sound was freakin' weird huh!! Mine was more like a pop as he broke through. Hope you finger heals quickly, but watch for infection ... my finger made the rat room look like a crime scene too....
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
No, not at all, it's his genes. Nothing you could have done would have caused this kind of aggression. He's really lucky to have you. Someone else would have gotten rid of him in a flash.odoriusagi said:
Joanne
Well-Known Member
Hang in there! Just guard yourself a bit more until a while after his neuter. We want you to be pain-free! Do you have a date for his neuter yet?
