Vicious rat, or just confused? - SNIP TIME FOR CASS!

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I would definitely have Mimo neutered but not the other one. In my colony, I have spayed females, some neutered males and intact males and they get along just find.
I've had severely aggressive rats because total cuttle bugs after their neuter.
 
I feel that neutering Mimo is giving him the best chance at a normal life. You will be surprised when you start reading posts at just how many people here have had a 'biter' that calmed down after a neuter and became a wonderful, loving boy. Some took a few days, others many weeks, but it does make a difference.
I would definitely do him if you can't do both. And doing Mimo now doesn't mean you can't do his brother later on.
Don't give up on him! The hardest won fights are always the most cherished. A year from now when he's sitting on your lap as you stroke him, you will think back to this moment and shake your head in disbelief. :D
 
I just got off the phone with the vet herself, and she doesn't think that it's a hormonal problem, but a behavioral one. :(

Based on the information we have about him, the minimum age he could possibly be is one year old, and she doubts that he would still be suffering from the "teenager" years anymore (unless he had a tumor or nodule). She hypothesized that he had a negative experience with hands/fingers, and that now that he feels comfortable in his new home, he is just being himself. It's probable that the foster home did not handle them at all, based on their neglected state when they arrived back at the shelter, and they wouldn't have seen this behavior if they hadn't been handling him.

She doesn't think that a neuter will necessarily be a quick fix for his particular case, but that we should avoid picking him up or forcing our hands upon him, but to offer him things he likes with our hands to try to build up positive experiences.
 
Many hornomal boys will continue to be hormonal well past the one year mark. He would probably still need continued socializing after a neuter, but the neute really would help.

Sent from my SCH-I415 using Tapatalk 2
 
He didn't seem hormonal to me at all last week but a change of environment can change behaviours. The scabs on Castielle's rump are a huge sign of hormonal aggression though and I would neuter based on that alone.

In our phone convo and over email, odoriusagi mentioned that on Sunday he would go up to them and bite them (outside of the cage) but didn't seem afraid or aggressive or anything. They would offer their knuckle and he would bite. Some rats don't know how to interact with people and he may have been testing the waters. It's entirely possible he didn't realize he was hurting you and thought it was a game. When a rat bites and it hurts, it's important to squeak. That's how they communicate with each other and that will tell him he's biting too hard.

One thing you can try is time outs (I'm not sure if anyone else has mentioned that) if he is being aggressive towards you or Castielle. Eventually he will associate the two and that could act as a deterrent.

I also think a neuter will resolve a lot, if not all, of the issues. Intact male rats, even if not aggressive, are a lot more on edge and anxious about everything. A lot of vets don't have a lot of first hand experience with rats and don't realize that. Even if there's something else going on, a neuter would eliminate the other insecurities at play and help iron out whatever other issues there are.
 
This evening, we took both the boys out for playtime. We were nervous about Mimo, but allowed him to explore us. He showed no aggression and no intent to bite, and while shy, was happy to get treats and run around on our laps and up our arms. After 15 minutes or so, we allowed our fingers to lay free on the blanket, and he sniffed them without showing any signs of biting!

Castielle was quite hostile to Mimo - not outright attacking him, but baring his teeth with his mouth open while looming over him, staring at him motionlessly while Mimo tried to crawl under him, pushing him away with his front paws. Castielle is just not a fan of Mimo, but Castielle was in no way hostile or anything but friendly to Steven and I.

After about an hour, Castielle deliberately went into Mimo's hideout to pick a fight. They tussled, with Castielle posturing and then running away to hide in Steven's lap. He sat there grooming himself, while Mimo slowly de-puffed his fur. Mimo went over and climbed secretly into Steven's lap and surprised the HECK out of Castielle, who squeaked and leapt! Mimo ran away - straight to me, and gave me a big old bite!

Then, he proceeded to rub himself over every single corner he saw. He is currently in the cage, rubbing his body all over the floor and hideouts and grumpily moving all of the toys around. He is in a tiff!

What on earth????!!!

Maybe we just reached our hands into the cage on Sunday after he and Castielle had been having an argument, and then forced ourselves upon him while he was super grumpy from that, and then he bit out of fear and misplaced aggression?

I think maybe a neuter is in order.
 
Who was rubbing their sides in the cage? Castielle was supposed to be the aggressive one according to his previous home and foster home, although the foster said there was no aggression towards Mimo, just humans. Can you take some videos? Sometimes it helps us to see them in action to read their behaviour.
 
It was Mimo rubbing his sides! He wipes his paws on the cage liner and then pushes himself around, rubbing his sides along everything, especially after they face off with each other, which is basically whenever they meet, unless Castielle is already asleep. He also does it for awhile after each cage cleaning. Castielle just does a lot of posturing - just standing there over Mimo with his mouth open and teeth bared. Sometimes he tries to bite Mimo on the top of his nose if Mimo doesn't pay attention to his dominance displays. None of Castielle's bites have ended with blood.

Weirdly, Castielle tends to run away during chases, and Mimo is the pursuer. Rat behaviour mystifies me. Will try taking a video during next playtime. I really don't sense aggression or fear from Mimo.

Heh. I can't help imagine what it must be like to live in close quarters with somebody who doesn't like you. I'd bite too.
 
Mimo is exhibiting classic bully alpha behaviour and Castielle is not happy with him.
Again, I know I'm sounding like a broken record...but a neuter would do him a world of good and would help Castielle live happily with his buddy.
 
Rats have scent glands on their flanks, if they're rubbing their sides it's because they're marking their territory. (Much like a rabbit chinning everything when they're in another rabbit's space.) I agree with Jo, he is showing signs of being hormonal and a neuter will help. It's possible we over estimated their age, it's hard to do and we don't want to under estimate because adopters will feel mislead if they discover their rats have a much shorter life expectancy once adopted. I did think they were at the very least 9 months old when they arrived, which would make them a year old now but it's not a science. If you take a video of them walking, Jo is usually pretty good at estimating ages based on their feet and their gait.
 
I noticed you have two threads going on the same subject, was there a reason why you did this? Do you want me to merge both topics?

Videos of your sweeties would be a great help!
 
Hi Joanne, I made a new post by accident - I thought I was changing the title of the old post, but I ended up starting an entire new thread. If it isn't too much trouble for you, they can be merged, since they cover the same topic and incidents.

I will see what I can do tomorrow about recording their interactions. Thanks again, I really feel reassured, having such a nice source of support and advice to turn to.
 
My Snickers is doing all that you describe except the biting. He practicially walks with his butt on the ground so he can scent everything - mostly when he is out for play time. It all started about 6 weeks to 2 months ago which would of made him about 10 months old. He is a terror to his cage mates and we know he needs a neuter, but we have to many vet bills with our sick boys that he just has to wait - although he is getting a bit better. Out of our 13 boys only 5 are neutered, but I should mention we have 3 separate colonies and 1 bachelor. We had two boys that were just as you describe and after their neuters, not right after, but a month or two after they are now cuddly sweet ratties!! Along with the neuter have you checked for mites since you did say they were not taken care of and were quite dirty...
 
I think we will be scheduling an operation as soon as possible - Mimo spent the night terrorizing his old friend. They were chasing and squealing, and there were little drops of blood on the liner this morning. Castielle has a bloody spot on his tail. :(

Castielle tried to hide in Mimo's hut... Bad news bears. Mimo was a furious fuzz (and SO cute when he's angry), puffed up to twice his size and enraged that Castielle was in HIS spot. Mimo rubbed all over the hut and huffed and puffed while Castielle cowered inside. Castielle got chased and nipped all the way up to his hammock, poor little boy.

Neutering time! Hopefully in a few months' time, I will be talking about my sweet boy rats and have good advice to give to others about aggression.
 
The changes were just too much for Mimo. With your vet and your help he will get better, feel better and become the rat that he was meant to be. Some rats don't handle changes well, especially changing homes and losing their "humans". He doesn't know yet that you are his forever mom.
 
Here is a kind of long and wandering video I took this evening of the boys. I wanted to make sure that you had a good sample of interactions. If you have a minute (or 14?) to take a peek at it, I'd really appreciate any feedback.

Playtime for Mimo & Castielle

Note: Mimo did draw blood after this video and was placed in time out (the carrier). He did not bite when I reached in to pick him up, but he was grumpy. He foofed and puffed up when I put him back in the cage.
 
I'm going to comment as I watch the video.
First of all, Mimo is alpha and Castielle knows it. When rats groom, they are not thinking about anything, they are indeed stressing but what Rat Daddy said about thinking during preening/grooming, is unfounded and simply ridiculous. Animals are not humans, they don't rationalize or analyze every little thing. With animals when stressed or when facing a scary situation will either fight or flight. Nothing more. No thinking involved.
Also, the posturing at about 5:00 was not a fight. Those two had a rat talk and Castielle moved away for Mimo the boss.

Also, many many animals do not like to be petted when eating. I respect my pets and their food and avoid touching them at these times unless I know them very well and I know it doesn't stress them out.
When were you bit previously? Also, you keep sticking your hand in his face, I would never do that. I would respect his space until he's very comfortable.
Rubbing, digging and such, that's him claiming the spot. Mimo rubs because he's alpha and he's marking all those areas.
With positive reinforcement, you want to set your pet up for success... don't offer your hand for him to bite. Rats don't get the concept of "no biting allowed". Next time, if he does latch on, you need to squeak in protest. But honestly, don't offer him your hand, not until he feels better about his situation.
I really don't see an aggressive rat here. I see a rat that has his space invaded. See, this is what I mean by Rat Daddy causing damage with his ridiculous immersion. You need to respect Mimo and his space, you can pet his head, don't touch his back end because that is a sensitive spot for all alphas. When you see he's about to rub and wipe with his hand, scoop him up with both hands and give him some loving and put him back down. Mimo is being very normal. He's not an aggressive rat.
What got him to draw blood after the video?
 
I went back and read the first post. You were first bitten 4 days ago? If that was a bite from an aggressive rat, you would have a bandaid on and you would still be in great pain. This is good news, that means Mimo is trying to ward you off, he really needs his space right now, he doesn't want to bite you, unless he feels he has no choice.
 
You keep saying they were fighting, but I didn't see any fighting between them. When rats fight they lock on and you see a screaming rat ball. They seemed to get a long rather well. Some where around 9 minutes I see the black one show some alpha behavior with the side walking and trying to put his head under the white one. Sorry I don't know how to spell their names. All that behavior seems to take place in the treat corner of the bed. Around 10 minutes the black one definitely starts the scent marking on the orange thing, box, etc. Are they the same age? The white looks older to me. The finger nipping - your hands smell like the treats you have been handing out that could be why he is nipping - rat don't have good eye sight and rely a lot on scent. However, you keep offering him your hand like its food - why? They really need some more stuff added to the cage hang a roll of toilet paper, put in a box of kleenex, they need more places to hide, some stuff to chew on - then maybe they won't "go after either other". I think once you get a neuter you will have two happy rats with two happy parents. They look rather well adjusted to me.

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