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I have quite a few ratties that love to run on the 12 inch diameter solid wheels.
None of them have developed "wheelie tail".

Artie, a rescue boy I took in a few months ago does have a tail that curves up much of the time ... but he isn't a wheel runner ...
 
My Django does also curl his tail although he doesn't run in wheels. It looks like a piggy tail. The vet said that he might have problems with his spine. So rats can get spine problem with or without wheels. But I think one hasn't to provoke problems :wink: If I only have the slightest supsicion that wheels can cause problems to the spine I wouldn't offer them to the rats.

Sometimes I ask people whether rats can eat a special vegetable and I get an answer: "Try it to give it your rats. You will see if they like it" I could jump against the wall :wallbang: Why should I provoke a toxication or ill rat? If I have the slightest suspicion that certain food might not be good for rats I don't give it to them. The same with the wheels.

Has someone posted this link yet? http://www.critter-cages.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=32.

:wink:
 
Oh I see, I was misunderstood because of my spelling mistake.

What I wanted to say is:
Sometimes I am asked by people whether rats can eat a special vegetable and I get an answer: "Try it to give it your rats. You will see if they like it" I could jump against the wall :wallbang: Why should I provoke a toxication or ill rat? If I have the slightest suspicion that certain food might not be good for rats I don't give it to them. The same with the wheels.
Click to expand...

My intension wasn't to start a discussion about food. I just wanted to point out that many people decide light-headedly to give rats certain food or cage accessoirs that might be dangerous.

:wink:
 
Emiko, what do the vets in your country say about this?

It got me thinking... could this possibly be related to rear end degeneration? I wonder if a wheel runner might be subject to rear end degeneration when reaching 24+ and would they perhaps not get that if they never ran a wheel? It's something to think about.
 
jorats said:
It got me thinking... could this possibly be related to rear end degeneration? I wonder if a wheel runner might be subject to rear end degeneration when reaching 24+ and would they perhaps not get that if they never ran a wheel? It's something to think about.
Click to expand...

I couldn't find anything specifically on rats, but saw a study on mice that found that wheel running delayed the onset of motor coordination deficits. I don't know how well, if at all, that translates to rats, though.
 
Mmm... this would mean that wheel running is a good thing. Most mice have very small wheels and have their tails curling upwards and sideways as well.
Do mice even get rear end? the 5 that we've had never had any problems like that.
 
I'm not an expert, I don't know. I just know that wheels like the Silent Spinner and the Karlie Wonderland are generally excepted for hamsters, mice and gerbils in Germany, but only if they are are not too small. Also it is generally accepted that rats shouldn't have wheels. More and more people in Great Britain slowly agree that wheels are not good for rats. There's a trend in whole Europe that goes against wheels. Of course, there are people who use wheels nevertheless.

I can do some more research and tell you then. I can only tell you about my vet and she says that wheels are insturments of torture for rats.

I hope that everyone here understands that I don't want to judge you. Sometimes things get lost in translation and I'm not always sure if I say things correctly. I just want to exchange experiences.

:wink2:
 
Your posts are very well written, no worries about insulting us. I'm very interested. If your vet has such a strong opinion, he must have some prior experience or documentation that would support his claims. I would really like to know scientifically what it is that it causes on rats.
We've had over 100 rats and I've never seen a crooked tail, or pain in the spine. I do however have many rats with rear end degeneration, but my rats live to be 2.5 to 3 years old. My oldests were 41 and 45 months both were wheel runners in their youth.
It's strange that this is a common fact and growing across Europe yet, it's the first I've ever heard of it.
 
I've never felt judged by any of your posts, Ekimo. Like Jo, I'm quite interested in the topic. I wouldn't want to do anything that would cause harm to my rats. But I don't want to take their wheels away without valid reasons. That's why I went looking for documented research this morning.

One thing they pounded into me in nursing school and even more so with my psych degree is to never accept anything as fact without scientific research to back it up. At this point, I'm not saying you're right or wrong - or that those of us using wheels are right or wrong. But if I panicked and refused to give anything to my rats that anyone ever said was bad or anyone had ever had an accident with...well, I pretty much wouldn't be able to have them, because there would be no cage that someone, somewhere hasn't said wasn't safe for rats, and no food that someone, somewhere hasn't said their rat choked on, and no toy that someone, somewhere hasn't said that their rat has been injured on.

My own personal experience is that my obsessive wheel running girls have never had "wheelie tail" or any spinal problems. But my own personal experience isn't scientific research, and never will be.
 
I totally agree with you KristyR. I wouldn't react different if I were you. I cannot give you any scientific proofs, I can just tell you that it is not accepted in Germany. But I must admit that you made me curious. I'm going to talk to my vet and I'm also going to find out more about that topic. Probably I will not be able to tell you tomorrow, but maybe in a few days.

:wink:
 
I have two wheel running girls... they only EVER use their wheels late at night, when they are definately not getting out-of-cage time. This makes me curious as to what you consider an acceptable amount of exercise for them. Not everyone is able to do 24 hour free-range, and if rats are most active at night when we are asleep then it makes sense to give them a number of options to exercise during that time... right?

I do find it interesting though that wheels are so frowned upon in Germany. I too look forward to hearing what your vet has to say on the matter.

Shelagh, you should ask Dr Munn about her opinions on the matter when you're next in.
 
I was in a Chat with several breeders and I asked about conformation and what could affect the health of the rat. Two things stuck out. One, that narrow heads often lead to sinus issues which is why good breeders alway try for that wide broad head. The other was the formation of the hind end. Hamster-butt was what she called a rat that was badly formed in the hind end...they just kinda drop off and flatten out vertically from the back. A good rat has more of a wedge shaped hind end...the hamster-butts often get the spinal nerve degeneration (mine all did). So it looks like we are back to genetics.
 
Mmm, mine with rear end definitely didn't have hamster butts, except for Pascal. But then, his didn't start until he was 36 months old.
 
While I had Roger at the vet this morning, I asked him if he had an opinion on the wheel causing spinal problems issue.

He said that he knew there was some debate going on about it, and that he hasn't seen any specific research on it. But, in his opinion, he doesn't believe that it is wheel running that causes spinal problems. He said that it is possible that a rat that already has spinal issues can aggravate the problems by running on a wheel, but even then only if that rat is an obsessive runner. He said that the benefit of the stimulation and exercise the wheels provide far outweighs the chances of problems. He said that if you had a single rat in a cage with nothing at all but a wheel for stimulation, and that rat ran on the wheel during all its waking hours, then it might develop problems from it.

Again, just his opinion. No research to back that up.
 

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