URI? Internal parasites? rosie needs help

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twitch

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
1,485
Location
Dartmouth, NS
i think some of you have heard about rosie. she and lydia were surrendered to me in horrible condition. lydia died the next day as she was too far gone for me to help. rosie at the time was too thin but otherwise healthy. she was gaining weight like a fiend and when this started she was just on this side of a healthy weight. all that wonderful weight she gained and progress she made as since melted off her and now she is down to 8 ounces. i tried feeding her baby food but i don't think she likes it. she eats her regular food fine. scarfs into the good left overs from diner and if she out while i'm eating will steal the food right off my plate! her activity levels are normal. she doesn't run anywhere but neither does she plod. she just doesn't seem to be in a hurry. she needs something that she will eat that will boost her weight up but here is what i think may be her problem that is causing her to lose weight.

1)something that kinda maybe be related to URI but doesn't act like a rat with URI should or;
2)heart issues or;
3)internal parasites if that is possible

1) she has been breathing fast, faster then she should for a little while now. and i know with the effort put into breathing so quickly it would be common to lose weight. at first the vet thought it was allergies but she did not respond to the dexamethazone shot at all. so we put her on baytril (as well as stewart who had the sneezes--he has since completely cleared up) but there has been no improvement with that either. her limbs are pale and though the rest of her limbs seem the proper temperature her ears are cold and pale too. but through all this she has not been acting as a rat with breathing problems should be acting other then losing the weight. she's been active. she's amoung the first to the cage door when i greet everyone. i have not had for very long and this breathing issue cropped up at just about the same time that she was coming into herself after settling in so i'm not sure if her medium speed behavior is just her or a result of illness. if the information i was given about her age is correct she is about 1 and half and probably closer to 2. so that may be it too speed wise. i contacted my vet and am waiting on a reply back for clarification on some issues. she's not lethargic in any way and she is making NO breathing sounds. i'm thinking maybe its scar tissue or a pulmunary abscesses.

2)though she doesn't seem to be having the other symptoms of CHF her limbs are pale. there are not cyaonic though but where she isn't having breathing sounds or acting like a rat with URI i thought maybe this might be it. i'm not a vet and i really hope i'm just being paranoid but does anyone else think this might fit?

3) finally after learning a bit more about what she and her sister went through before i got them and learning that they were fed LIVE mice when the previous owner's snakes would not eat i got to thinking that maybe this is 2 separate problems and maybe rosie has worms. i know she's small and worms (as much as i know about them) tend to be in larger animals... but eating live mice cannot be healthy for rats, i wouldn't be surprised if something was transmitted. that could explain the weight loss and then maybe the fast breathing is just scar tissue but the weight condition is aggravating it and making her breathe even faster so that i'm noticing it now where i didn't before. i'm not sure how the original weight gain could be explained though if she already had the worms when i was given her. but maybe there's a different kind of internal parasite that acts differently then the worms i'm familiar with for dogs and cats and such.

i have contacted the vet. i am waiting for her reply back. any information you can give me on this or theories you could put forth for me to research would be greatly appreicated. i just think more is going on here then just a typical RI, there's something just not adding up right...
 
yes, I can see what you mean about a piece being missing from the puzzle. You might want to give Debbie Ducommun a call. I don't have a clue how you might treat parasites other than the usual ones.

The heart may be her problem, though. During the time of malnutrition her heart muscle might have atrophied and maybe it's not up to the task of getting oxygen to her extremities now that she's closer to a normal weight. According to Debbie D's guide, it is safe to try a rat on benazepril (Fortekor) to see whether it helps. If it does, you have your answer. My Melissa was developing heart problems but she did not have breathing noises until she had an outbreak of myco. She had been less active than the other rats for a long time, but was never lethargic (especially when treats were being offered!) After she got really sick, she recovered almost miraculously with Lasix and Fortekor along with Baytril.

I sure hope that it's not some kind of PT. After all she's been through she deserves to have a long life in good circumstances.

Good luck, and please keep us posted. I hope that dear little Rosie is with you for a long time to come.
 
First, I'm so sorry for your loss of Lydia, it was quite tragic.

Are you sure Rosie is not at her normal health weight? She doesn't sound like a girl with URI or even CHF. She wouldn't be active. Also eating takes so much energy, she wouldn't be able to scarf food down, she would need a big nap during/after the scarfing. Another symptom of CHF is swollen extremities.
As for the internal parasite, this can easily be treated. Ivermectin or Revolution should do the trick.
IF she does have kidney issuse, she would need to be on a very low protein diet. I would give her lots of low protein, high fat foods like avocado, coconut milk and olive oil. That should help fatten her up some.
 
would kidney or liver problems cause rapid breathing? i will try that diet, thank you. but i know she is far from a healthy weight. she is very thin, i can see her hip bones. but nothing i've tried to feed her to boost her weight has worked. when i had kakushi and she was going through the later stages of her PT she was still a good healthy weight because of the ensure and baby cereal mix given every 2-3 hours. rosie doesn't want it though. she tastes it then walks away. but then she'll steal a french fry from my plate and chow down. i've tried three different flavors but she won't have anything to do with them, even chocolate and strawberry flavored! she's a picky picky rats. but maybe the stuff you recommended will be to her taste.

i was uncertain with the CHF idea as well as really its just weight loss and pale limbs that fit it but i'm kinda grasping here... it certainly doesn't seem like a URI thats for sure.

another forum i posted on about this threw out internal tumor in or around the lung. i've had rats with malignant cancer. he activity levels but weight loss would fit into that from my past experience. and if its near or in the lung that would explain the rapid breathing. if this is the case i think it would pretty much be it right? there's nothing that can be done on an animal that small if the lump is in the chest. is there any chance that it could be an abscess and not a tumor? would that make a difference?

when i call the vet again tomorrow (she did not reply back during the time i was home) i will present the theories of complications due to malnutrition, internal parasites, internal tumor/abscess and heart complications and see what she says as well. its looking to me that the likely culprits here would be malnutrition, internal parasites but most likely internal tumor/abscess. is there anything else that you guys think it might be? what about her having eaten mice in the past, is there something she could have picked up from that, that is showing up know do you think?

thank you everyone that replied. your input is greatly appreciated.
 
Ben had liver disease and the vet thought it was a myco flare up. He lost weight rapidly as well. She only found the liver disease on a post mortem.
 
another forum i posted on about this threw out internal tumor in or around the lung
Why?

I had a rat with a thymic tumour and he had very rapid breathing, lost weight but was quite active, so it's quite possible.
 
i meant threw out as a theory, not discounted it. rereading that i can see how that can be taken differently. sorry for the confusion.
 
man, i am just full of double meaning sentences tonight. alright, i'm sorry again for the confusion and i'll try again. what i meant by that sentence was that they offered that theory, that they tossed it out into the discussion to be considered (think playing catch in a large unfamiliar group--the one with the ball gets to talk and offer something to the discussion). i hope that clears it up some now.
 
Oh!! ok, I get it... :doh:
Ya, so it's a possibility. The thymic tumour on my Magnus was not noticeable until post morten so your vet won't be able to feel for one.
 
well i guess the best way to go at it would be treat for the things that can be treated, if there is improvement then we found the problem and hope its not something that can't be treated. if it is a tumor or abscess in the chest cavity, would steroids reduce the mass any? i know it reduces inflamation but i'm not sure abscess or tumors react the same way. mind you if it was an abscess then i should have seen an improvement with the baytril right?
 
According to my vet the pred can't help with shrinking tumours.
If she's got pulmonary abscesses which is extremely common, then no, baytril wouldn't have helped but would help with any secondary symptoms to pulmonary abscesses which is the same as pneumonia.

Any symptoms of confusion, knuckling or making a fist, head tilt, wobbly back legs, going in circles?
 
Another thought... if your vet is comfortable with doing an xray, he may be able to see an enlarged heart which would mean CHF or fluids in the lungs, lasix would help for both.
 
no, she's clear headed and bright eyed. tonight when i said good night to everyone she was a bit wobbly on her fit but i did just wake her from a rat pile and after a few moments she stopped. i'm not sure if the vet will do an x-ray but i will certainly ask about it. i read on ratguide that if lasix is affective it would be noticed after about 20-30 mintues, is that true? that i would notice a change that quickly in breathing?
 
How is Rosie?

Did you get an xray?
It would also show the amount of scaring in her lungs.

As godmother mentioned, you may want to try fortekor and also lasix to see if they help.
Have you tried olive oil in with the baby cereal? My rats think it improves the taste.
I assume you are trying ensure, kitten milk, dissolved mushy lab blocks, etc.

btw, a harlan order is going to be placed in the next week or so. You may want to get in on that as Harlan 2014 is excellent and also low protien ... Contact mumsy rat re the Harlan run.
 
sorry for the long time in reply. things got a little busy over here and i just haven't had the time to really sit and go over the forums.

rosie seems to be doing better. they did not have any lasix in when i took rosie in but she has another appointment at the end of this week and we're going to see if that improves the breathing speed at all. we did not do a x-ray at that time because the vet was nervous about putting her under sedation at that time due to her condition. hopefully with the eight gain she's had she will be ok enough for one. in the inbetween she was dosed with ivermectin and then she started to put the weight back on so i'm thinking that part of the cause was internal parasites. she's still too thin and she's still breathing too fast but she's a happy bouncy little rat all the same.

i have been trying all that but rosie is an odd one. if she can't chew it she won't eat it. i even tried putting straight ensure in a water bottle but after a quick taste she refused having anymore. apparently water bottles are ONLY for water according to rosie. but she is slowly improving with the normal diet and some extra supplements. i've been trying to heap up on the carbs a bit and it seems to be working. she'll eat cooked pasta like there is no tomorrow and it seems i have another strawberry fiend.

she's fighting strong and still happy through it all. we're hopeful that the vet visit will be helpful and we'll have more time with our little dear.
 
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