Silver, He is gone.

[Bamboo]

So, I just skimmed this thread and, I don't anything about kidney failure in cats or what to do about it but I just wanted to address the Science Diet thing (even though I know we've moved on lol): If you are just feeding Science Diet in general, there are both better and worse things out there. The main issue with Science Diet is that they remove most of the oils (and the essential fatty acids, Omega 3s, 9s etc. with them) during the processing. However, the Science Diet "specialized" type foods (like "Oral Care", "Sensitive Stomach" etc.) are very good at what they're designed to do. (Also, I know somebody who just got back from a trip to the Hills plant and the animals who are used to test the food are extremely well treated and are very happy, so anybody feeding Science Diet can rest easy: you are not supporting keeping dogs and cats in tiny cages for 23 and a half hours a day.)

I'm glad your kitty is doing well! He's gorgeous!

 

[Cinderwolf]

So, I just skimmed this thread and, I don't anything about kidney failure in cats or what to do about it but I just wanted to address the Science Diet thing (even though I know we've moved on lol): If you are just feeding Science Diet in general, there are both better and worse things out there. The main issue with Science Diet is that they remove most of the oils (and the essential fatty acids, Omega 3s, 9s etc. with them) during the processing. However, the Science Diet "specialized" type foods (like "Oral Care", "Sensitive Stomach" etc.) are very good at what they're designed to do. (Also, I know somebody who just got back from a trip to the Hills plant and the animals who are used to test the food are extremely well treated and are very happy, so anybody feeding Science Diet can rest easy: you are not supporting keeping dogs and cats in tiny cages for 23 and a half hours a day.)

I'm glad your kitty is doing well! He's gorgeous!

Oh that's good to hear ( about he well treated animals) , about he essential oils and such, would there be a way to supplement the oils, since he is now on a strict low protein diet, I don't think we can feed much else but this Hills diet.

And thanks, he is a cutie pie : )

Another update, My grandparents were here for about a month, while he was being diagnosed and such and well my grandmother loves to feed the cats treats, so no matter how much we told he he couldn't have them because of the protein, he got them and lots. But now they have gone home and he ( and his brother) are back on their low protein, NO TREAT diet. We hardly give them treats, maybe once a month, so they loved the daily treats. But no more. But because of the lack of treats both the cats are protesting by eating less food, thinking we will give them treats. But they are figuring out we wont so they started to eat the good food again.

Also you never really realize how rough their fur was until you feel them now, both the cats are soft as kittens and Silver sheds a wholllle lot less ( probably the season is contributing, but he usually sheds year round. ) Its a big difference from before, their fur was more coarse, now it's silky.

Because we were left with a big case of wet cat food and a big bag of dry cat food that the cats weren't allowed to eat anymore so we took it over to the local cat shelter and donated it. We know the women who runs it and she was so great full and the cats were as well. My mom said she was just throwing hand fulls out everywhere and they were running to get some " tasty" food, because the shelter usually buys less expensive food for them. so at least something good has come out of his illness.

 

[Bamboo]

Oh that's good to hear ( about he well treated animals) , about he essential oils and such, would there be a way to supplement the oils, since he is now on a strict low protein diet, I don't think we can feed much else but this Hills diet.

Oh yeah, for sure! Many good pet supply places will have oil supplements (usually fish oil, just in case that would be a problem for his specialized diet) It's usually in an oil form that you add to their food but you can get capsules, if you have any preference like that.

 

[Cinderwolf]

Oh that's good to hear ( about he well treated animals) , about he essential oils and such, would there be a way to supplement the oils, since he is now on a strict low protein diet, I don't think we can feed much else but this Hills diet.

Oh yeah, for sure! Many good pet supply places will have oil supplements (usually fish oil, just in case that would be a problem for his specialized diet) It's usually in an oil form that you add to their food but you can get capsules, if you have any preference like that.

Oh I will definitely look into that I was thinking about starting a fish oil supplement anyways because he has really bad dandruff haha

 

[Bamboo]

Oh I will definitely look into that I was thinking about starting a fish oil supplement anyways because he has really bad dandruff haha

Yeah, a fish oil supplement should clear that up (and his coat should improve too!)

Another thing you could look into as well would be a kelp supplement. It's great for skin and coat health, as well as being a digestive aid and a sort of multi-vitamin (again, you should check that nothing is going to clash with his specialized diet) If you decide it's right for you, wean it in gradually over the course of a few days to a week. You should start to notice a difference within a week to a week and a half of fully introducing it. I, personally, use this specific product: http://www.naturvet.com/index.php?option=com_dogcat&task=view&Itemid=34&pid=96

That same company actually has fish oil supplements too, in both liquid and capsules: http://www.naturvet.com/index.php?option=com_dogcat&task=view&Itemid=32&pid=120 and http://www.naturvet.com/index.php?option=com_dogcat&task=view&Itemid=32&pid=160

They also have Omega specific supplements: http://www.naturvet.com/index.php?optio ... 32&pid=116

This is a different company but it's another good fish oil supplement: http://www.yummychummies.com/oil.html

Both are really good companies. I have no personal experience with Yummy Chummies but I have heard good things about them from customers. It's, apparently, very smelly but that just makes it that much more appealing to them lol. NaturVet is a great company too and, like I said, I often use their products with my guys. I also use BiologicVet and I really like them (and the fact that they're a Canadian company is another bonus IMO) but they seem to be catering to dogs almost exclusively these days (which sucks IMO)

Anyways, there are lots of other options...those are just the first ones that popped into my head lol

 

[Cinderwolf]

I will definitely keep that in mind, however I think I will hold off for a while. Lately he has decided that this food is not tasty and has stopped eating it cept for small amounts of hard food. :emb: He also appears to have convinced his brother of this. so for now we are just trying to get him to eat it, my mom is going to pick up some of their old food to mix in. Since the vet said it's more important for him to eat then to eat the right food. So once he and his brother are back on track with eating the special food, I'll try a supplement. :gaah:

 

[victoria]

I will definitely keep that in mind, however I think I will hold off for a while. Lately he has decided that this food is not tasty and has stopped eating it cept for small amounts of hard food. :emb: He also appears to have convinced his brother of this. so for now we are just trying to get him to eat it, my mom is going to pick up some of their old food to mix in. Since the vet said it's more important for him to eat then to eat the right food. So once he and his brother are back on track with eating the special food, I'll try a supplement. :gaah:

You may find fish oil actually makes the food more palatable for them.

 

[Cinderwolf]

I will definitely keep that in mind, however I think I will hold off for a while. Lately he has decided that this food is not tasty and has stopped eating it cept for small amounts of hard food. :emb: He also appears to have convinced his brother of this. so for now we are just trying to get him to eat it, my mom is going to pick up some of their old food to mix in. Since the vet said it's more important for him to eat then to eat the right food. So once he and his brother are back on track with eating the special food, I'll try a supplement. :gaah:

You may find fish oil actually makes the food more palatable for them.

Ohh that's good to know. I'll be going to the vet shortly for a check up, I'll ask about fish oil for his diet while I am there.

 

[Moon]

I'm learning that the key to adding fish oil to a kidney diet is to make sure you're adding body oil - like salmon oil - as opposed to something like cod liver oil as body oils are lower in phosphorous.

 

[Cinderwolf]

I'm learning that the key to adding fish oil to a kidney diet is to make sure you're adding body oil - like salmon oil - as opposed to something like cod liver oil as body oils are lower in phosphorous.

Ohh good to know I'll keep that in mind

 

[Cinderwolf]

So, some not so good news. The past few days Silver has refused to eat the K/D Diet and today he was so lethargic and not himself, so we brought him in. They gave him some fluids and took a blood and urine sample. After the results, they found out his kidneys had gotten worse, since his numbers we not as good as the first time he was brought in. He also lost 4 pounds.
So long story short, we will need to do the sub q fluids now and he is staying over at the vets until Monday. hard to keep him there, I am worried sick and lets just say it isn't cheap. With a car that is possibly broken beyond repair, we really didn't need these added costs. We are also going to try a new type of food with him and put him on a potassium supplement ( which he apparently should have been on from the get go.

All in all I had a really bad day. So worried about him.

 

[Moon]

Spending the 48 hours on iv fluids has completely turned my Quita around. Granted, it's only been about a week, and things could certainly change, but she's been excellent.

Cats typically deal better with renal failure than dogs do, so you can still maintain some hope for your boy. But sounds like bigger changes are needed. You need to speak to your vet about doing sub-q fluids, like Jo mentioned she's done with her Cally. Cats already don't drink enough water most of the time, so making sure he's hydrated enough is essential to keep moving the toxins out. Sub Q fluids can come with potassium added, which would mean you're killing two birds with one stone. I've not had to make this move with Quita, but I am getting significant fluid amounts in her by adding it to her food and giving her water dense treats (ice cubes and frozen strawberries). These aren't an option so much for you.

Also, there are lots of supplements and meds that can help. Omega 3s, as I mentioned before, are the big one. They are pretty essential to kidney health and probably one of the best additives out there. The pet ones are flavoured to be more enticing, but with a cat especially, just adding a salmon oil to his food may entice him to eat as it smells more fishy. And really, the importance of Omegas are becoming more and more accepted by the world at large for improved health at large, so I doubt your vet would be against it.

There are medications that stimulate appetite, and you may want to talk about putting him on a phosphorous binder. Phosphorous is the main thing you're looking to avoid with CRF (chronic renal failure) and a medication that bonds the phosphorous to it and then re-directs it out of the body properly so it doesn't accumulate can be really helpful.

If you guys haven't looked at it already, this is a great website. Very thorough. http://www.felinecrf.com/

Then, there's the less typical supplements and holistic remedies that can be used. Animals supplemented with vitamin b often have improved appetite. And I've seen this particular product recommended a lot on different websites:
http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/products/ ... 25043.aspx

This looks like a good website too:
http://www.holisticat.com/crf.html

Good luck! I hope he's feeling better on Monday.

When Quita had her initial blood test, her BUN and creatine numbers were through the roof. After the 48 hours of ivs, she came down to normal range in her creatine and nearly normal for her BUN. You may really, really see improvement. I will be thinking of you.

 

[Petunia]

So, some not so good news. The past few days Silver has refused to eat the K/D Diet and today he was so lethargic and not himself, so we brought him in. They gave him some fluids and took a blood and urine sample. After the results, they found out his kidneys had gotten worse, since his numbers we not as good as the first time he was brought in. He also lost 4 pounds.
So long story short, we will need to do the sub q fluids now and he is staying over at the vets until Monday. hard to keep him there, I am worried sick and lets just say it isn't cheap. With a car that is possibly broken beyond repair, we really didn't need these added costs. We are also going to try a new type of food with him and put him on a potassium supplement ( which he apparently should have been on from the get go.

All in all I had a really bad day. So worried about him.

Silver has not been on subQ's at home at all?
Moon is right, of all the treatments that can be done for a cat with renal failure, this is the most helpful. Their kidneys are not concentrating their urine, so they get dehydrated quickly and the toxins that are supposed to be filtered out of the blood thru the kidneys, those build up, which makes the cat feel very sick- nausea, no appetite, etc

Pepcid ac can help with the nausea, there are meds for appetite stimulation but really, the BIG one is getting those fluids into him

With worsening kidney values, he probably should be on at least 100-150 ccs per day (usually its LRS) and once his kidneys are flushed out and he's feeling better, his appetite should return

if he is not eating, he really needs to see the vet right away, for a CRF cat that is even more of a danger than for any other cat.

They have to eat, it doesn't matter what you give him for food, he has to eat.

Your vet really should be telling you all these things, and if they are not, you might want to find a new vet?


worry about the food once you've got him hydrated and eating again, then you can try stuff that is better, but for now, he's gotta get over this hump and turn things around. Give him whatever he will eat for now, seriously, I can't stress this enough.

That's the mainstay of therapy for kidney cats, fluids and food

FLUIDS and canned FOOD, any food you can get into him.

I've had three cats with CRF and two of them were also diabetic.
NONE of them ate the kidney diet, NOT ONE OF THEM, and one ate some very high phosphorus foods. She lived the longest from diagnosis, well over 5yrs

the two diabetics didn't do quite as well but that's because they had multiple health issues.
The first girl lived for two years with NO RENAL FOOD and no subqs at home, they didn't do that back then (almost 2 decades ago)

and the second diabetic did well on subQs and whatever food he wanted, no special diet, for over a year, and he died from something totally unrelated to his kidneys

his kidney values had improved and stayed at a good level, on the fluids alone.

so don't let the vet tell you that the food is the most important thing- what is making the cat sick is kidneys that are not doing their job
what do we do for ppl with kidney problems? we put them on dialysis

fluid therapy is the next best thing for cats

(they actually can do dialysis on cats now but it's very expensive, I've heard)


as soon as the toxins are cleared from the blood/body, a lot of the other things get better too.

once he's stabilized you can worry about fine tuning things.

:thumbup:


keeping you in my thoughts and prayers



Good luck!


PS
Brico is a good place to get your fluids usually much cheaper than the vets, and crap are you in the US?

http://bricomedicalsupplies.com/

It looks like they don't ship to canada?
well if you are in Canada, I"ve heard that its cheaper overall to get fluids and supplies than it is for us here in the US

 

[Cinderwolf]

We will be doing the sub q injections at home once he gets home ( sorry forgot to put that in the update, was not thinking straight. ) Yes when he stopped eating the renal food, we put him back on whiskas because we wanted him to eat. But then he stopped eating that so we took him in. Hopefully the fluids at home will be enough to make him feel better and decide to eat again. We wanted to try the different food in case he likes the taste of it better. I'll ask the vet about omega 3 when we go to pick him up.

 

[Petunia]

We will be doing the sub q injections at home once he gets home ( sorry forgot to put that in the update, was not thinking straight. ) Yes when he stopped eating the renal food, we put him back on whiskas because we wanted him to eat. But then he stopped eating that so we took him in. Hopefully the fluids at home will be enough to make him feel better and decide to eat again. We wanted to try the different food in case he likes the taste of it better. I'll ask the vet about omega 3 when we go to pick him up.

oh ok, yeh there's so much to think about when you've got a sick kitty :hugs:

You might want to ask about the Pepcid ac, I think you give just a quarter of a tablet, I'm waiting to hear back from my CRF kitty peeps

He'll be so happy to be back home! hope his appetite picks up!

 

[Cinderwolf]

Okay I'll make sure to ask ( gonna write a list of things to ask the vet about haha.) we will ALL be glad to have him home for sure.

 

[Cinderwolf]

Okay so I forgot to update you guys after Silver came home. His numbers are back up and to the normal range. Which is great. He looked a bit sore when he got home, but that's the arthritis acting up from being in a cage all weekend. He loves his new food, and he is now on a potassium supplement as well as a binding agent of sort. I told me mom to ask about the omega 3 and pepcid ac but she didnt :wallbang: . So now with these supplements added in we have to feed our boys seperate meals. which proves to be difficult, Since they always want into each others stuff. But we are making do.

Speaking of my other cat, What Silver came home for them vet he obviously smelled pretty vet like because his brother Tigger shunned him for a few days. Poor Silver was banished to my room because Tigger wouldn't let him in my parents room ( what a meanie!) But since, they have made amends and I have proof :

I love it, you can hardly even see Tigger <3

I think he is happy to be home.

Also, his iv, we have him on the sub q fluids every 3 days. The first time my mom did it he sat with no problems. Yesterday however, he just didnt want to be there so he squirmed and when he was 2/3 s done, he had enough jumped up, the needle flew out and he ran off. :gaah: What a rotten cat, he will learn eventually to sit still though.

 

[Petunia]

oh what beautiful kitties and such wonderful news!! so glad Silver is home and doing well

the pepcid AC suggestion was for if he wasn't eating, so long as he's eating you wouldn't need it- it's to help with the acid stomach they get, but giving him fluids will help prevent him from getting an upset stomach
so it's going really well!
so glad he sits still (for the most part LOL) for the fluids

I've had a couple of cats walk off in the middle of treatment and the fluid sprays everywhere til you can clip the line shut again, it's kinda funny in a way. well the first time at least :giggle:

this is a great update, I am so glad to hear it!! :hugs: looks like your boy is feeling a whole lot better, he looks so very comfy in those photos

 

[Cinderwolf]

Yeah it was pretty funny, though my mom wasn't laughing

Also I got it wrong, he isn't on Potassium, he is on Phosphorus lol .

Yes it is good that he likes the food, because well this food is not quite as expensive as the original food we had him on. Which is always good with so much expenses.

 

[Moon]

He should be on a phosphorous binder, as it is something you're avoiding!

Glad he's on subq, that can make all the difference. And I'm glad he's back home!