Munster wont eat/drink after surgery - He's gone <3

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Not good. I've been with him all night, had him tucked by my side to make sure he stayed warm and loved. He has almost no mobility at this point. He can pull/push him forward a step or two and that's it. His back legs stay completely splayed behind him now. I started him on baytril/doxy yesterday at 5:30pm, and another dose this morning at 6am. I've been up every hour with him to move him, put clean bedding under him and wipe him off once since I know he pees where he lays now. Each time I've been able to get him to eat a lot of ensure/coconut water. He's also eaten a bit of avocado, oatmeal, corn, banana. Despite this still eagerness to eat and ability to get his meds down, he is deteriorating before my eyes. He had 5cc's of fluid yesterday morning, and I skipped the evening dose because he was getting worse even with the fluids, drinking a lot of ensure/coconut water, his pinch test wasn't horrible and he is doing a lot of big, non smelly pees. I thought it best to see if he improved without the nightly dose of fluids.

The only thing I can't think left to try at this point is the dex. I know he can't go on the way he is, it's breaking my heart as I truly thought with him eating so much he might actually have a fighting chance, but he's just getting worse before my eyes. I'm stunned that I haven't even gotten a chance to know him, that the first thing I did for him bringing him into my home ... that some mistake was made and that it's come to this. He hasn't had a chance to know the companions I had for him, to be spoiled and loved. Just a surgery, and a cone, and shot and I wanted so much better for him. I can't help but think that I took in someones rat and did this to them, even with the best of intentions.

I feel like I'm at that last chance point, and the only thing I can think of is the dex. I don't know what else to try, he's eating, he's drinking, but he cannot even move but a step at a time and he's just laying there all day. It's not a quality life even with the food, and I feel like if dex can't pull him out of it, or something else isn't on the table, then I'm going to have to admit that this is really as bad as I hoped it wouldn't be and let him go before I even get to know him.
 
Gave him 2cc's of fluid to get the dex into him (I'm much more comfortable with butterfly needle sets), after this we are stopping the sub-q's as he is drinking a lot of ensure and peeing well. His last sub-q before this was 5cc's yesterday morning, I skipped his nighttime dose on the same hunch.

Videos are uploading, but when taking him in the living room for the dex injection I noticed that he *can* stand and walk some, still very wobbly and weak but he is capable. I suppose he chooses not to unless stressed as the act alone tires him out and makes him breathe hard. he ate more ensure for me after the injection, peed well a few times, tried to clean himself a bit if I hold him upright and balance him so he wont fall over. His nose is covered in porophyn which is relatively new to the last few days, but probably understandable at this point.

If it helps, this forum post of Shelaghs shows exactly what his feet looked like all night. Just spread out behind him, never pulled in and sometimes curled at the toes. They weren't cold, and they respond to touch. http://www.ratshackforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=20925&hilit=malcolm+injury+or

Here are videos from this morning:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=571349269581139&set=vb.100001182124493&type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=571348666247866&set=vb.100001182124493&type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=571346872914712&set=vb.100001182124493&type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=571345939581472&set=vb.100001182124493&type=3&theater
 
:cuddle: I'm sorry your going through this - we both seem to be going through too much with our babies right now. Is it possible he's getting too much fluid with the SQ since he's drinking so much and obviously urinating? Perhaps he has problems breathing due to fluid build up and now that you've stopped the SQ maybe he will show some improvement. I certainly hope good things are in the future for you two.... My Curley is laying that same way now and has been for the past week and yesterday I noticed he isn't using his front paws. Last week he was diagnosised w/URI after I missed it earlier thinking he was just depressed since he had been laying around all week refusing treats. So I'm thinking PT and that it probably started a week or more ago.

Thanks for your posting on Finn's site it took me a really long time to get through it without tears. :heart: These little guys just touch our hearts so much and which baby leaves us first it will be our first loss. Curley however, is our :heart: ratman! I pray you get time to spoil your new guy and show him all the good things a rat should experience in a loving parent and cuddly companions, but be assured I trully believe they know we are trying our best to help them and they understand that some times that involves things they do not like and/or may hurt them. Don't give up on him yet. We've thought so many times Finn wasn't going to pull through and he keeps surprising us - he's a real fighter that boy.

Hang in there :hugs:
 
dspch911: I'm so very sorry for you as well. I've been watching your thread with great interest. Excited for every progress and my heart sinking with every downturn. It really is brutal and so hard to feel like perhaps you're just missing something. I know usually we give it all we've got with the knowledge we have at the time, but I know being in the middle of it... it's hard to not feel like you're just not doing enough. I'm sure every pet owner feels like this. I keep hoping that your sweet one will pull through, or at least have some more good days in store, but I can only imagine the toll it is taking on you both and I hope you both are finding comfort in one another. I know how easy it is to miss these things. I kept kicking myself that I didn't add up the dehydration sooner... you just think that you'll keep getting better at this stuff and it hurts to realize that we still miss things we think we shouldn't. When so much is going on though, it's easy to overlook something and hindsight kicks us even though we know we tried. Last night I had to take a step back and just remind myself to make things as good as possible too, so I just put him on the bed with me and we spent the entire night together. I've no idea if it comforted him or not, but I figured it was better than being alone for him. I just loved him and pet him and kept him warm. I told him we'd fight as long as he was willing and that if the wasn't or couldn't, that it would be ok too. I told him he had friends and spoils if he could make it. I know through all the panicking and trying to figure things out, it's so easy to forget to just make time to love them, just in case. <3

I do believe the fluids are probably doing more harm than good at this point. I think he needed them initially, but now he is drinking so much ensure/coconut water. He's been off the fluids since yesterday (except for 2cc's I used to get the dex injected - I'm better at sub-q's with butterfly sets than actual shots with a needle, the tubing helps me greatly), and his peeing is still normal and frequent so I think he's hydrated enough now. He gobbles down ensure/coconut water now, 4cc's in a row this morning, so I'm still holding out some hope for him.

Thanks for the kind words and reminding me about Finn. My Nibs was the same way, and my Gizmo as well. Both sisters and both unbelievable fighters who I thought I was going to lose many times but didn't. These sweet souls have amazing spirits and have surprised me before, and your sweet Finn was the reminder I needed not to give up until they do. I will continue watching Finn's thread and hoping that both him & Curley have better days ahead of them. I've watched you fighting for them both so strongly, I'm sure they can feel that energy and I hope it will pull them through for you. <3
 
Munster videos: 9/25 Afternoon - After morning Dex injection

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=571418079574258&set=vb.100001182124493&type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=571419319574134&set=vb.100001182124493&type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=571419612907438&set=vb.100001182124493&type=3&theater

I went to feed him in the cage and found him *standing up* in his hidey. When I handed him the syringe of ensure, he actually held it with one paw while sitting up to drink it (normally both paws have been flat on the ground). & the first video I tried to shoot of him on the bed, he went around the cage on the bed so fast I had to drop the camera and catch him before he might have fallen.
 
:joy: Wow what an amazing difference. I hope he just continues to improve for you now and he has a while to enjoy all the spoiling and loving he is going to get. :joy:
 
So. At this point with some real improvement we've:

Taken him off the sub-q. He had 5cc's yesterday, we skipped his dose last night because he was drinking and peeing, but he got 2cc's this morning so I could give him the dex with sub-q fluids and the butterfly set. He's had no more sub-q since and is drinking ensure/coconut water about 3-4 mL's at a time every hour or two. He's eating as well and still moving around better. Sub-q's have been discontinued.

He's on baytril/doxy twice a day, his third dose will be tonight.

He got 1mg/kg dex this morning and improvement showed a few hours after that.

For the experts... What's your take on the above info? Does it lead you to favor certain guesses on what's wrong with Munster?

Shelagh is leaning towards neuro because of the fast response to the dex, sounds like she is leaning towards PT as a possibility. Before the surgery and issues, he seemed old but could jump from one level to the next in a Rat Manor with no problem. Is PT sometimes set off by surgery or this kind of stress? He was also able to eat off a syringe this week, pull corn kernals to himself and hold them at ground level, and eat off a spoon, if it helps any assessment. I'm not familiar with PT in the least so just throwing it all out there.

I'm assuming we will be weaning him off the dex at this point to see how he does, so I'll need advice on how that is done as well. I've only ever had one rat on dex, and it was chronic treatment. He got a 1mg/kg dose this morning.
 
I don't know how the switch is made from dex to bromo if that's what you're thinking of doing in the future (not sure if you need more evidence of PT or what) but I am so very glad there's been improvement wiht the dex.
I think some ppl treat their PT rats with steroids......sorry it's been awhile since I had one with PT and I've forgotten.
 
I myself haven't seen signs of PT, but I'm certainly not as familiar as Shelagh on the topic (I'm not familiar at all, really). My plan was to see how he does on the baytril/doxy and weaning off the dex, while still giving him lots of yummy ensure/coconut water and food. I figure he is getting around very well, eating *very* well and seems quite coordinated, so unless I see a decline I'm going to hope we are on the right track. Shelagh did not say it *was* PT, just that it could be a high possibility because he improved so fast on the dex and something I needed to be aware of.

More videos from tonight... I'd say he's still holding. <3

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=571476806235052

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=571478802901519

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=571479356234797
 
yes it's hard sometimes to be sure but after having several PT rats myself, I saw PT signs in some videos. They can get disoriented, off balance, confused; a couple of mine would go into a corner and stay there. the symptoms were different with each one, but eventually we got enough of a collection of little bits to be able to say, yes, this is probably PT. It would be great if this isn't PT and instead caused by a small stroke or something that can completely resolve. You can make educated guesses but without seeing inside the rat, even when you're fairly sure of what it is, you can still be wrong (or it could turn out to be more than one thing, for example) You just make your best assessment from what you've seen before and go from there. I am so happy for you that he's doing better. It was breaking my heart thinking he'd leave you so soon after getting him home.
 
Your baby looks great! That last video is amazing - Curley doesn't do anything with is front paws - he would never have grasped that food or moved them like your baby did! I will try and get a video of Curley tomorrow after work or Friday, but hopefully by then he will have improved - I'm praying and keeping my fingers crossed.

Continuing healing vibes for your little old man... :joy: I certainly wish the best for the two of you and continued improvement. Praying your baby doesn't have PT and that he just needed to rest up a bit after his ordeal. Hope you have a good night and can get some rest.
 
Since he responded so quickly to a steroid, then there is probably inflammation/swelling present. My guess would be PT/stroke or injury to his neck/spinal cord from the fall.
I would keep him on the steroid for a few days before weaning him off it. The inflammation needs to have a chance to get under control. If he is on a steroid for any length of time, it's prudent to put him on prophylactic antibiotics to prevent an opportunistic infection.
If you try and wean him off it and he regresses, then he may need to be on something like Pred long-term.
I'm glad to see him coming back to life!
 
It could also be a spinal cord injury and the dex is relieving the inflammation. Hopefully it's reversible, whatever it is.

ETS: Joanne beat me to it.
 
Do you think spinal injury from the fall would have taken a downturn, then an upturn after fluids, and then a downturn again? That was the main part that really baffled me is that he appeared to begin eating and moving more after the initial fluids, and then crashed again a night ago and then responded *really* well to the dex injection this morning.

I guess I will hope for a temporary issue from the fall then, since the timing was definitely along those lines for sure. He didn't show any signs of PT before the surgery, the only symptom I really think was there before surgery was dehydration, so I'll be hoping and praying it isn't that. If it is, I guess we'll cross that bridge when we come to it, and for now I'll just enjoy an unexpectedly good upturn for as long as we can have it. We're having a "bed night" again, except this time his is coherent and enjoying lots of yummy foods. He's hiding out in his hut right now, but I've got the bed setup safely for him and me and hopefully he'll crawl back out again soon. He still looks like he's doing good in there, so I'm hoping he's just resting up and enjoying feeling a bit better. Thank you to everyone for rooting him on and helping me help him throughout this.

dspch911: I'll be hoping and praying for your wee ones to enjoy an upturn as well. Even the smallest ones count and make all the difference in their all too short lives. I know we wish so much more for them, but the littlest good times are every bit as important. I hope yours still have some in store for you all and I'll hope you have an unexpected good video for us shortly. <3
 
The way he moves really looks like it's something with his spine/central nervous system. I don't know if it's an injury or maybe something from the anesthesia or something entirely different. It just doesn't look like PT when he walks. He may have a strange presentation of PT also, you never know.
 
He did fall off the bed the day I really noticed the downturn, and he fell off the bed with the cone to make things more suspicious. Regrettably, I didn't see it happen (more regrettably it happened in the first place, I never should have left him unattended on the bed, I just lost my senses on the whole matter since he seemed fine on the bed at my mothers and my house and mine always freeroam). My floor is carpeted, but he very well may have bonked into something on the way down, or worse, landed badly with the cone on. That night was the night I later noticed that he stopped eating/drinking and was quite lethargic. I still think he wasn't drinking water beforehand as well, and that or something else may have contributed to however he lost his balance off the bed, but looking at the whole of it still gives me hope of something possibly fixable rather than PT. It will be what it will be, but I'm still holding out hope for the sweet little guy.
 
Well this is giving me alittle hope that maybe Curley could have something else going on and I will beg and plead for the drugs tomorrow, but I don't think so. I gave the boys cheerios this am and again he isn't using his front paws and he was putting his face into them, but just seemed like he had no idea what they were or what to do with them. Every so often I would hear a crunch like he took a small bite, but if you knew my Curley he LOVES food and especially treats! He would take one stash it in the liter pan and come back for another - like he never received the first one and would do this over and over again until he had a pile! He is the most lovable, out going first to cage door waiting to come out rat man. Now he just pancakes on the cage floor!

Sounds like maybe your guy might have just pinched something with the cone and had some swelling. That would be great if it just needed some time to heal and he's on his way to recovery. Don't beat yourself up over it - these thing happen. Twice in the past 2 days I've accidently bumped Finn out of a hammock into a bowl of applesauce - as funny as it sounds I've felt horrible dumping my sick basically crippled (depending on the day) baby into applesauce!! Anyone reading this is probably laughing and that's ok, because I kind of am too as I think about it now, but then my poor boy needed a bath.... I didn't make him an apple coated Finn on purpose he just tumbled out of the hammock when I accidently bumped it reaching for something. Anyway, my point is even though we have their best interest in mind sometimes these things just happen, we learn from them, and we'll do better next time.
 
dspch911: I'm going to jump on over to your thread in a second to keep things less jumbled, as I have a few questions and don't want to mingle things for those reading. :p

for Munster - I slept through my alarms to feed him and ensure him every few hours, but I just did a quick check and he's still able to walk in him hammie and groom with both front paws. I'll take him fully out in a second for his meds and to make sure he still looks as good overall on the bed as yesterday, but he was still able to walk all around the bed last night quite well. He even burrowed under the blanket and "tunneled" around. I did notice that since this has happened he's taken to doing harder grooms/bites on my hand. Just one or two before, but last night he if my hand was near he would do harder small bites repeatedly on it, which he never did before. I know that could be aggravation from him, but realize that it could also be a sign of neuro going on so fingers crossed there. For now, he still looks better than yesterday morning, so I'm thankful. <3

Here is Munster this morning, bright eyed and alert:
1374343_570352569679224_935156594_n.jpg


Munster's upgraded cage. I tried to make it fall proof and low inclines on the ramps. I saw him go up one ramp, and back down using the lower layered flat hammocks, and then back into his lower hammock.
1374363_570353116345836_399809423_n.jpg
 

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