Munster wont eat/drink after surgery - He's gone <3

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violet976

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Joined
Nov 17, 2009
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Munster is a very old rat we took in two weeks ago. He had a fast growing squishy tumor that we opted to remove on Thursday. He seemed ok afterwards, I had put a cone on him as the incision was big and he was yanking at it. He hated the cone but still seemed ok. was eating and drinking. Today I left for about 4 hours and he had fallen off the bed to the floor. He had seemed fine on his bed setup so it didn't occur to me to lock him up. After I picked him up, he hasn't eaten or drank anything for me. He seems very dehydrated, and I'm wondering if he wasn't drinking much from the bottle as it would drip into his cone and he would try to shake the water out. He was also dehydrated at the vet Thursday though despite seeming fine at my mothers, getting around well and having good access to his water bottle.

My vet who has on call hours does not have them tonight, and our ER vet is not familiar with rats. The only thing I can think to do for him is to Sub-q him, which I tried but I am unsure of how much I am supposed to do. Per Shelaghs post, I saw 1.5 cc's in the photo and figured it was safe to go with that. Should it be more, less, how often? I've never sub-q'd before and I'm just grasping at straws to get him through the weekend. I've offered him all his favorites, mushed lab blocks, reconstituting fluid... he wont touch any of it. Any advice is much appreciated.
 
He may have a PT, anesthesia sometimes aggravates them.

Sub-q you can give much more than 1.5 cc if needed. It's good to warm the fluids by immersing the bag in hot water (careful not to immerse the valves) before giving them so they're more comfortable.
 
I gave him 1.5cc's and he's simply sitting in one spot, barely moving at all. Should I be giving him a larger amount, and if so, how much more? Also, how soon does sub-q usually take to show some improvement?
 
It may not have a huge effect if dehydration is not a significant contributor to his condition. Once the fluids are absorbed (when the bubble is gone) you should see him perk up a bit if the fluids are going to help.

Did he have any other symptoms other than poor balance?
 
its hard for me to tell exactly, as I just brought him home Thursday. He's been in quarantine at my mothers, he was eating, getting around really well. The vet said he was dehydrated on Thursday but his gums were still pink and he's overall health seemed ok, lungs ok, eyes ok. He did seem a bit slow that day, but he was mainly a sleepy/lazy rat so it was hard to say if he was a bit under the weather or it was just his personality. The past two days after surgery, he seemed ok just, I thought, a bit slow getting around from the surgery pain. He was eating ok. He *hated* his cone though, and I almost wonder if he began drinking less as he would take a few licks and the shake his head, I assumed because water dripped in the cone. In hindsight, I'm wondering if he just started drinking even less than he was. He ate his meds/yogurt this morning all down, and seemed less mobile but I thought it was because he was upset over the cone. When I came home today I found him on the floor. I was gone for about 4 hours and he had seemed great on the bed, so I didn't think to lock him up. I can't say if the fall has something to do with this either, but I can say that his urine has been pretty smelly the past few days so he very well could have been on the road to dehydration and I stupidly missed it.
 
The cone is gone now, right? Was he wearing it when he fell off the bed?
What is the floor like? (soft carpet/hardwood)

If his urine smells unusual, it's possible he also has a urinary tract infection.

I would certainly give him more than 1.5 cc's of fluid, especially if he seems dehydrated.
Here is the link to the page in the Rat Guide:
http://ratguide.com/meds/fluid_therapy/ ... ingers.php
 
Yes, the cone is gone now, but he was wearing it when he fell off the bed. The floor is carpeted and I don't think he would have hit anything on the way down, but he is old and it's still a big fall for a rat I know. I took the cone off when I found him and realized that he wasn't eating any food. I thought he might have just been upset over the cone so I took it off. I'm warming up the fluid now to give him a larger amount.
 
got more sub-q fluids in him with no sign of improvement. I put him back on the bed now. and it appears like he keeps doing some involuntary movements. he started to clean himself a little, but then just began grabbing his chin over and over and over. then some more cleaning, . I also noticed it looks like he will try to walk, but his body doesn't actually move. like he's wanting to take steps, but his feet wont move. I'm wondering if this is perhaps a stroke or seizure and not just a dehydration issue?

he still doesn't look good by any means but he ate a small piece of banana on his own. Now he resumed just sitting in the same spot again so I'm just not sure, but it's the most I've seen from him since finding him this way. If anyone has suggestions of anything else I should be doing based on this let me know, otherwise I'm just trying to get him through the night and will let him rest for awhile, then give him more sub-q in a few hours.
 
I'm also still wondering if perhaps the fall of the bed could have caused some neuro damage, or spine damage or something. I feel horrible that I thought he would be fine on the bed for a few hours. He had shown no trouble whatsover the past few days and the thought to lock him safely in the cage didn't even occur to me. At least then we wouldn't have one more option for trying to narrow down what just went wrong.
 
I put him in the carrier to rest and just woke up to check on him. He was looking at me in the carrier. I opened it up, put some water on my finger and he licked it off. He took a few small sips from the water bottle but not many. I watered down some yogurt and he ate it, put a bit of mushed up lab blocks with the watered down yogurt and he ate it off my finger, handed him a piece of avocado and he took it. He stood up at one point and looked a bit more steady.

I'm certain I'm not in the clear but it's still better than I expected to see. I've got my alarm set for another few hours and I'll give him more fluids, and try to get some water fruits into him along with the watered down yogurt.
 
The involuntary movements and over grooming does sound like something neurological. It could be after effects of anesthesia. Lets hope it's not PT since you notice some improvement.
 
I would not overlook the smelly urine and definately get him to your vet on Monday for UTI check and antibotics. :heart: :cuddle: Healing vibes to your squishy man
 
There is also a chance that he was injured by the cone when he fell. Although it may be flexible, if hit in the right orientation it could have wrenched his spine, or jammed up against his neck.
I'm glad he seems to be improving a bit and is taking some food. :)

And here's something interesting:
My father (who's a senior) was noted to have odd smelling urine, and became quite disoriented, so much so that he was taken to the hospital. It was discovered that he had a UTI. After a couple of days on antibiotics, he was back to normal. So, I learned that UTIs can sometimes affect cognition and motor function. News to me, but good to learn. So this may be contributing to your boy's problems.
 
Yes, I was wondering about injuries from the fall and also about possible toxic like effects from a bad UTI. I'm hoping it's not spinal damage as he can seem to walk a bit better this morning, and groom himself. He took a piece of banana and walked it over a small bundle of fleece, so he can use the legs even though it seems like old/weak movements. I'm hoping another round of sub-q and now some real food in him will show some more improvements, but either way he is going in to be seen.
 
Just saw this thread. I'm so glad he is starting to act a bit better!

My first thought was about the cone as well. Since he was operated on a few days ago, I suppose he already is on pain meds?

I was reading through the thread like it were a suspense novel :giggle: Keep going, you know you're doing something right when they start acting better again!
 
No luck on the vet today, not even to be able to have the call center give him a message. I do have Merle's appointment tomorrow at 10:15, which is the first opening my vet takes in the day, so hopefully Munster can hold on until then. Our e-vet knows nothing about rats and I'm not sure what else I'd even ask them to do at this point. Munster is showing some interest in food and got his second subq, so I'm hoping he's hanging in there now. I'll be on the bed with him today to keep watch.

@ unepuse: Yes, so many thoughts have ran through my mind. Unfortunately, with him being old and having been a bit dehydrated already before surgery, then the surgery, then the cone, then the fall... there are just too many variables for me to know for sure. I also began to wonder if perhaps it was an effect from the pain meds themselves, but I still think the timing seemed most closely related to the fall. I also still think he perhaps wasn't drinking as much water because it bothered him with the cone and I missed it, and with him being already dehydrated some, perhaps that's it. Could be a combo of things.

For now, I stopped his pain meds because he was off anyways from not eating yesterday, and I worried maybe they might have a reacted badly. Since I don't have a good vet option until Merle's 10:15 appointment tomorrow, I'm just hoping he will keep eating and the sub q will kick in. If he comes out on the bed with me, I'm going to have a syringe handy so perhaps I can speed up a UTI test for both him and Merles re-check. Other than that, I'm not sure what else to do. I've been giving him watered down lab blocks and watered down yogurt which luckily he is eating some of now.
 
I'll try to get a video this morning of him. It's dark in my room though so I'm not sure how clear you'll see him. I gave him about 4.5ccs around midnight last night, and 3cc's this morning about an hour ago. If it should have been more, I'll do it again, I just feel bad that he keeps getting pulled out for it and I'm still not great at giving it to him without hurting him some.
 
for 10ccs, what syringe are you using that works with the butterfly set? I have the 3cc syringe which is why I went with 3 the second time. I guess in reality that was his third injection as the first one was in two tries. Just for the sake of clarity he was given:

1.5ccs around 10pm, I think
another 2.5cc's around 11pm
3cc's about at about 8:30am today
 

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