Momo getting extremely thin [tumor related]

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Mandon

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2014
Messages
344
Location
British Columbia, Canada
So Momo's had a benign mammary tumour for a few months and it's really starting to get huge. By this point I can tell it's really draining her nutrients, because she's lost a lot of weight and she's becoming ravenous whenever I give her treats.

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do here. I've inquired about surgery before but Momo's 2 years 3/mo and the universal consensus seems to be to leave it and let nature take it's course, since it's unlikely she'd survive another surgery - but it's really upsetting to see her like this, and I think if the tumour was gone she'd probably be able to live happily and healthily again. It still feels too soon to consider euthanasia, so I don't know what to do here.

Any and all input would be appreciated
 
I think if you have a good vet that you trust and if she is not ill in some other way (resp issues? heart issues?) it might not be a bad idea to have the tumor removed.

I'll leave it for others to add their experience but I"m pretty sure there's plenty of ppl who have older rat have surgery and they do fine. I'd ask Jorats if she doesn't see this and respond
 
This is such a tough call. Not an easy decision to make but you have to try to think about whats best for Momo. For me personally, I wouldn't have the heart to have her go through the surgery. It's not just the procedure itself, its the recovery. It's a very large incision with a lot of stitches for a tumour that size and at her age, it will prolong her life for mere months. That's if she makes it through the surgery itself.

This is quite heartbreaking and I've been thinking about it a lot. Just how big is that tumour growing? Can she still move about etc? Rats do lose a lot of weight when they age. She would most likely be getting thin even without the tumour. You are in a difficult position. I've had two elderly ladies that I put through surgery to have the tumours removed. Sheepy didn't make it but Dina did. She lived for another two months, if that. Although recovery went well I don't think I'd put an elderly rat so advanced in years through surgery again. If Momo was mine and she was a couple of months shy of her 2nd birthday, I'd go for it.

But then it is your call. I can totally understand why you won't have her put to sleep by looking at her videos. I wouldn't and you are right - she looks far too healthy and active for that just yet. I would keep waiting and trying to adjust her living arrangement accordingly, so she can mobilise and I'd ensure she was clean and getting some anti inflammatory meds to improve her quality of life until it's time. This is awful luck that she's developed such a fast growing tumour at her age, but I think putting her through the surgery is not the best thing for her.

I'll support you whatever decision you make though. It's entirely up to you and like I said, a difficult dilemma. You love her more than anyone in the world and I'm sure she knows that. She's had an amazing life and that is down to you.
 
This is such a tough call. Not an easy decision to make but you have to try to think about whats best for Momo. For me personally, I wouldn't have the heart to have her go through the surgery. It's not just the procedure itself, its the recovery. It's a very large incision with a lot of stitches for a tumour that size and at her age, it will prolong her life for mere months. That's if she makes it through the surgery itself.

This is quite heartbreaking and I've been thinking about it a lot. Just how big is that tumour growing? Can she still move about etc? Rats do lose a lot of weight when they age. She would most likely be getting thin even without the tumour. You are in a difficult position. I've had two elderly ladies that I put through surgery to have the tumours removed. Sheepy didn't make it but Dina did. She lived for another two months, if that. Although recovery went well I don't think I'd put an elderly rat so advanced in years through surgery again. If Momo was mine and she was a couple of months shy of her 2nd birthday, I'd go for it.

But then it is your call. I can totally understand why you won't have her put to sleep by looking at her videos. I wouldn't and you are right - she looks far too healthy and active for that just yet. I would keep waiting and trying to adjust her living arrangement accordingly, so she can mobilise and I'd ensure she was clean and getting some anti inflammatory meds to improve her quality of life until it's time. This is awful luck that she's developed such a fast growing tumour at her age, but I think putting her through the surgery is not the best thing for her.

I'll support you whatever decision you make though. It's entirely up to you and like I said, a difficult dilemma. You love her more than anyone in the world and I'm sure she knows that. She's had an amazing life and that is down to you.

Yeah it's just, she's getting alarmingly skinny. And the tumor is like half her size now... she can still move around but she feels so different when I pick her up.. so frail and brittle, which is upsetting. I'm not sure if she'd survive another surgery or the recovery, but is dying under those circumstances really better than this?

On the other hand... it may be time for me to accept that her time is nearing and just let things happen. Me and Momo have fought for a long time so I guess giving up is kind of hard for me.. but the last thing she needs right now is to be wrapped up in a straightjacket (to keep her from opening the wound) after being cut open yet again..
 
Isn't it the worst part apart about having rats :(

But ya know, you've been an amazing guardian for Momo. She is just so blessed to have someone like you loving, caring and going above and beyond to fight for her. You're a remarkable person. I know she looks like she's in a state right now, but she is old too and sometimes it looks worse than it is. Give her some pain or anti inflammatory meds for peace of mind, lots of tasty treats and cuddles. She's likely more happier than she looks. Please don't forget to celebrate that long and rich life that she's had too. Her age is such a blessing, enjoy these last weeks and celebrate her xx
 
Yeah it's just, she's getting alarmingly skinny. And the tumor is like half her size now... she can still move around but she feels so different when I pick her up.. so frail and brittle, which is upsetting. I'm not sure if she'd survive another surgery or the recovery, but is dying under those circumstances really better than this?

On the other hand... it may be time for me to accept that her time is nearing and just let things happen. Me and Momo have fought for a long time so I guess giving up is kind of hard for me.. but the last thing she needs right now is to be wrapped up in a straightjacket (to keep her from opening the wound) after being cut open yet again..

oh yes, that would be rough-I hadn't thought about the size of the tumor before. I had a girl who was 2 have a tumor removed but the tumor was small...
she got 3 more tumors and lived 8 more months, passing from heart disease instead...
I would not think of it as giving up- think of it instead, if you can, as her body aging and failing, and her needed to be, eventually, set free of that shell to be made whole again. I have had to let girls go that seemed so full of life still, because of huge tumors, and one way I dealt with it was realizing that I'd had the opportunity to let them go before they had a single day of pain or suffering (although I'm sure they had some discomfort) That can be a blessing too.

I don't know. it's all so hard. You know your girl the best.
but it is not giving up the fight to decide to not put her thru any more pain, it's giving her the gift of a peaceful passing.

I remember when my dad had hospice and I was reading a lot about the process of dying etc, and there was a remarkable statement made that really stuck with me- that for many, death IS healing. The body is finite, and always has been. At some point, the only way to heal is to leave it behind. I hope that gives you some peace, I know it was very helpful to me.
 
oh yes, that would be rough-I hadn't thought about the size of the tumor before. I had a girl who was 2 have a tumor removed but the tumor was small...
she got 3 more tumors and lived 8 more months, passing from heart disease instead...
I would not think of it as giving up- think of it instead, if you can, as her body aging and failing, and her needed to be, eventually, set free of that shell to be made whole again. I have had to let girls go that seemed so full of life still, because of huge tumors, and one way I dealt with it was realizing that I'd had the opportunity to let them go before they had a single day of pain or suffering (although I'm sure they had some discomfort) That can be a blessing too.

I don't know. it's all so hard. You know your girl the best.
but it is not giving up the fight to decide to not put her thru any more pain, it's giving her the gift of a peaceful passing.

I remember when my dad had hospice and I was reading a lot about the process of dying etc, and there was a remarkable statement made that really stuck with me- that for many, death IS healing. The body is finite, and always has been. At some point, the only way to heal is to leave it behind. I hope that gives you some peace, I know it was very helpful to me.

I've decided not to get her surgery. It'd be too rough on her and the money I spent on it could be saved to treat my other girls if something comes up.

It's just hard. She's practically skin and bones and has no belly left. Also, I don't know what this could mean - but there seems to be some blockage of dry blood in her vagina. Just another symptom to worry about... and if she can't go pee because of it then that's bad. really bad

So obviously I'm going to have to consider euthanasia at some point soon. When do you guys think it should be? She's not in pain but she's also not comfortable, and the symptoms she has could lead to a painful death.
 
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I've decided not to get her surgery. It'd be too rough on her and the money I spent on it could be saved to treat my other girls if something comes up.

It's just hard. She's practically skin and bones and has no belly left. Also, I don't know what this could mean - but there seems to be some blockage of dry blood in her vagina. Just another symptom to worry about... and if she can't go pee because of it then that's bad. really bad

So obviously I'm going to have to consider euthanasia at some point soon. When do you guys think it should be? She's not in pain but she's also not comfortable, and the symptoms she has could lead to a painful death.


I think that symptom has made the decision for you both. and either way, it's better to be a day, or literally even a week, early than a day too late. You have the chance to keep her from going thru ANY unnecessary pain.
I would love her on and give her all her favorite treats if she'll eat them, tell her how much you love her and will miss her, and let her go as soon as you can get an appt.


I am so very sorry.
 
I think that symptom has made the decision for you both. and either way, it's better to be a day, or literally even a week, early than a day too late. You have the chance to keep her from going thru ANY unnecessary pain.
I would love her on and give her all her favorite treats if she'll eat them, tell her how much you love her and will miss her, and let her go as soon as you can get an appt.


I am so very sorry.

Just out of curiosity, what does the symptom mean? [dry blood over the genitals] ? I know it can't be good.. just curious.
 
UTI and/or uterine/vaginal infection.... don't quote me on this one but I think I read it's also possible for a large tumor to rupture internally and I guess depending on it's location, it could leak blood thru other channels....?

one other thing I wanted to mention, when we are asking "it is time?", many times we know on a gut level that it is, but it's just so hard to accept...

you know your girl and your circumstances best, whatever you decide will be the right thing.
I can tell you I personally would not wait, but that really is entirely up to you and your comfort level and what you know of your girl etc
 
you know your girl and your circumstances best, whatever you decide will be the right thing.
I can tell you I personally would not wait, but that really is entirely up to you and your comfort level and what you know of your girl etc

It's really conflicting for me because she's still happy and herself.... it's easy to know when it's time when they're not able to enjoy life, but even despite all that's happening with her body - Momo's still toughing through it and living life like she always has. On the flip side.. I'm 99% sure it's really only a matter of weeks, maybe even days before that changes. I have a lot to think about.
 
my heart goes out to you, I know how difficult this is.

I don't know if this story will help you or not, but even though it's still very fresh and painful for me, I will share it in case it does:
I just lost my oldest rat ever, Elyse- although she was not "mine" for most of her life. She came into my life at the age of 2, with a tumor that needed to removed, and that was successfully with no ill effects, even though the vet used staples (not commonly used for the type and area where the tumor was, but it was what the vet was comfortable with)

she was happy and healthy, in spite of sprouting 3 more tumors (all fairly slow growing, thankfully)
On Feb 16th, she showed signs of rapid breathing and didn't want to eat- which is very unusual for her!
Took her to a vet, who diagnosed her with a heart condition. She was given a shot of lasix, and started on benazapril with oral lasix and was doing, eh, so-so on this treatment. She lost her appetite, which concerned me, but I noticed one day when I was late with her meds that her appetite had returned. Checked into it, lasix can cause trouble with appetite. So I weaned her off the lasix and she seemed happy- because she could eat! and she seemed to enjoy hanging out with me. In fact, in the last 10 days or so, she got horribly upset if she could not be in the same room with me, so she spent her days on the sofa, and I laid with her on my chest for hours, and it was nice to spend this time together.
she had a very brief periods where she did not look so good, and I was worried, but she continued to eat, and as far as I knew, a rat close to death, or any animal, really, will not eat.
She looked more and more tired and on Sunday Feb 27th, I believed that she was going to leave me, just fade away from old age and not necessarily from the bad heart- because with a heart problem, there is eventually respiratory distress. I never saw her gasp for breath. She laid on my chest for several hours and I cried and said goodbye to her, convinced she was about to slip away. She was barely moving. I told her about all the new friends she'd see on the "other side" and how she would be reunited with rats she'd known in the past.
Then- I had to pee! really bad. I didn't want to disturb her but I moved ever so slightly, and she popped her head up and immediately licked my face!!!!!!

yeh, so, that was one heck of a roller coaster day, you could say.
On Monday I was just not sure, I thought perhaps she was rallying, I"d added back some lasix...
but on Tuesday, after sharing a video of her showing that she was really breathing quite fast, which is not comfortable of course. I made the decision to bring her to the vet
I called her previous owner to drive us there.
Then, while I was getting the carrier ready, I gave the girls a bowl of baby food peas. Elyse was eating them like crazy! I almost called and cancelled the vet, but I"m glad I did not.
When we got the vet, Elyse was gasping for breath. I asked them to put her on oxygen, having no clue if this would help or not
A short time later they came and told me she had passed.
Amazingly she had hidden just how sick she really was, til the very last minutes. This still stuns me.

I feel some regret, as I had never ever wanted her to experience the horror of not being able to breathe. I am grateful that that period of her life was very very short, but still, it happened.
I am also at peace with her passing this way because now I have a better perspective on the passings of most of my other rats:
I have taken most of of my older rats in early, partly-or mostly- because I do not drive and must arrange transportation to get to the vets. I never wanted a rat of mine to be in distress and me not have the means to get them help immediately.
I have always wondered if I was cutting their lives short, and what would have happened if I had waited...

I can say without hesitation, that I made the right decision in every single case when it came to bringing them in before they deteriorated to a truly bad state.
I no longer doubt that, and I no longer worry that I shortened a good life.
I wish I had taken Elyse to the ER vet the Sunday before she died, but I didn't, and we had that day and a half more together, and I learned, sadly at her expense, that rats can and do hide their illness very very well-
and that it really is better to be a day early than a day late.

Maybe take a video of Momo, or ask others to take a good look at her, and give you their thoughts...?
Elyse was breathing rapidly, and that was really most of the time, but I did not want to see it. I adored this girl and as long as she was eating and wanted to be with me, I did not want to see the signs that said, she really was tired and needed to be helped on her way. I posted her videos on FB and kind friends helped me to see that she was not really all that comfortable.

I am not saying you are wrong about Momo, but I know how easy it is to fool ourselves into thinking things are better than they really are. I am glad Momo is mostly herself. That's nice.
I hope you have some really GOOD time left with her and that when you make it, you are at peace with your decision. If you do not plan to take her in to say goodbye soon, I would definitely get a vet to check out her bleeding and see if she needs an antibiotic and possibly even pain meds.

wishing you both the very best.
 
I'm gonna send another video but it isn't going to change my decision at this point, because I found yet another issue with her.... This time it's in her oral region. I couldn't get a good look but something is very messed up in her mouth. Her breath has smelt for awhile but I didn't think anything of it.. this time however, I think there's an infection or something because her teeth seem ****ed up and misaligned.

I'm going to phone the vet tomorrow to schedule an appointment to have her put to sleep.. at this point I'm just going to try to spend as much time with her as I can. But it's upsetting for me just to hold her now....

God >< If I knew her time would come so soon I would have taken the extra effort to spend time with her in the past. I feel like I've failed and neglected her as an owner.. I should have spent several hours a day with her.

EDIT: Here's the video [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSyU4OIHVlY[/ame]
 
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oh I see what you mean, she is very active. she could possibly be active due to discomfort but that's not something I can tell from the video

aww her mouth is messed up too? I had that happen with one of my boys who was losing wt, and for some reason, I never thought to check his mouth. He was also very close to the end, I don't know if their jaws weaken as they age and they are more prone to crooked teeth or what. I know I was shocked and horrified when I noticed his teeth and I felt horrible that I hadn't thought to check sooner.

but the thing is, you can't beat yourself up about stuff like that. It's always best to keep a hopeful outlook, and it's not always easy to remember all the many things that can go wrong with this guys (and gals)
please please please do not feel badly!!!!!!!!
Momo knows how much you love her over her entire lifetime. that counts for a lot- not the last few minutes or days.

If you can spend time with her without it upsetting you too much please do. She does not look like she wants to be held, based on that small clip... but do what you feel is best.
and know that you've loved her and cared for her and always had her best interest at heart, and that no one is perfect, and she would be upset to think you are feeling bad.
 
oh I see what you mean, she is very active. she could possibly be active due to discomfort but that's not something I can tell from the video

aww her mouth is messed up too? I had that happen with one of my boys who was losing wt, and for some reason, I never thought to check his mouth. He was also very close to the end, I don't know if their jaws weaken as they age and they are more prone to crooked teeth or what. I know I was shocked and horrified when I noticed his teeth and I felt horrible that I hadn't thought to check sooner.

but the thing is, you can't beat yourself up about stuff like that. It's always best to keep a hopeful outlook, and it's not always easy to remember all the many things that can go wrong with this guys (and gals)
please please please do not feel badly!!!!!!!!
Momo knows how much you love her over her entire lifetime. that counts for a lot- not the last few minutes or days.

If you can spend time with her without it upsetting you too much please do. She does not look like she wants to be held, based on that small clip... but do what you feel is best.
and know that you've loved her and cared for her and always had her best interest at heart, and that no one is perfect, and she would be upset to think you are feeling bad.

She still comes to the front of the cage when I come downstairs though. She definitely wants to see me, so I'll absolutely oblige.

I guess Momo probably doesn't blame me for not spending enough time with her.. but to me it's like I wasted potential time with her. When a pet is healthy, you never consider how quickly life can be taken from them - even if it's happened on numerous occasions in the past.
 
and even though I know this is the right call, it's still kind of hard for me to feel right about putting her down. I just think about the fact that she's still exploring, interacting with her sisters, etc - and that I'll be taking her from her family, into a small cage [stressful situation] to have her killed. No matter how I try to justify it, it still feels awful..
 
and even though I know this is the right call, it's still kind of hard for me to feel right about putting her down. I just think about the fact that she's still exploring, interacting with her sisters, etc - and that I'll be taking her from her family, into a small cage [stressful situation] to have her killed. No matter how I try to justify it, it still feels awful..


yes in fact I've asked some others to come and look at this thread, because it may not be time just yet

I see what you do, an active girl, maybe with some meds she'll be ok. her tumor is NOT that big
please wait for other's input
I have to go out but will check back later
 
From the video, I wouldn't be having her put to sleep just yet. I saw a skinny girl, not emaciated, curious, alert, active. I've had rats with bigger tumours yet. Her blood on her vagina could be genital myco. Her mouth, could be a cut or abscess. Baytril and zithro could help with that. But all we see is less than a 2 minute video. You see more of her, her behaviour, her day to day routine. So you are really in a better position to decide. I know it's hard, especially when they are still very alert. You could have your vet assess her, he will help you in that decision.
 
From the video, I wouldn't be having her put to sleep just yet. I saw a skinny girl, not emaciated, curious, alert, active. I've had rats with bigger tumours yet. Her blood on her vagina could be genital myco. Her mouth, could be a cut or abscess. Baytril and zithro could help with that. But all we see is less than a 2 minute video. You see more of her, her behaviour, her day to day routine. So you are really in a better position to decide. I know it's hard, especially when they are still very alert. You could have your vet assess her, he will help you in that decision.

Yeah but given the size of the tumour and how fast it's growing, it really isn't going to be long until she's too sick to eat or drink to begin with. Assessing her quality of life is kind of difficult since rats hide their pain well..

Of course, I do want to get multiple opinions first.. it's a really hard decision after all. I'm just having a hard time seeing a scenario where she's able to have a quality life from this point.
 
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