jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
Is that video recent? If so, I wouldn't leave them together in the cage. Filbert is going for the gonads. That's a bad sign. Is Filbert neutered?
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odduckOasis
Well-Known Member
Yes, that was a recent video, just a few days ago.
I didn't end up leaving them in the cage over night. I didn't feel right about it. The boys were hiding out mostly in the pod in the corner of the cage away from the upper level where Filbert couldn't get to them. While Filbert mostly ignored them and stayed in one of the bins on the bottom, the babies were rather nervous around him.
No, he's intact. I have thought that I may need to have him nurtured to get him to chill out.
I tried a technique this evening where you use gloves to kind of, block the more aggressive rat and keep the new rat(s) calm and block any 'attacks' that the established rat might attempt. It did work fairly well. I was able to block Filbert from going after Pongo's privates or nip at his hind legs- but Pongo also needed to be calmed as he would attempt to nip at Filberts face a couple times. Pongo was less nervous with me there to protect and keep Filbert from puffing up- or calm him down when he did. Dusty still would keep super still and several times came over to me and cuddled into my chest if Filbert got near him.
While they did spend time in the carrier, I think it was mostly because there wasn't much room... I'm not sure what that was about and why it changed so fast.
I'll probably have to save up and get him neutered and try again after he's recovered from surgery. He's become more aggressive now that he's lost his cage mates. I don't think he's yet 2 years old, a little over a year and a 1/2 I think. But yeah, I had considered getting him fixed, that might be the only other option if I can't get him to stop attempting to hurt the boys.
I didn't end up leaving them in the cage over night. I didn't feel right about it. The boys were hiding out mostly in the pod in the corner of the cage away from the upper level where Filbert couldn't get to them. While Filbert mostly ignored them and stayed in one of the bins on the bottom, the babies were rather nervous around him.
No, he's intact. I have thought that I may need to have him nurtured to get him to chill out.
I tried a technique this evening where you use gloves to kind of, block the more aggressive rat and keep the new rat(s) calm and block any 'attacks' that the established rat might attempt. It did work fairly well. I was able to block Filbert from going after Pongo's privates or nip at his hind legs- but Pongo also needed to be calmed as he would attempt to nip at Filberts face a couple times. Pongo was less nervous with me there to protect and keep Filbert from puffing up- or calm him down when he did. Dusty still would keep super still and several times came over to me and cuddled into my chest if Filbert got near him.
While they did spend time in the carrier, I think it was mostly because there wasn't much room... I'm not sure what that was about and why it changed so fast.
I'll probably have to save up and get him neutered and try again after he's recovered from surgery. He's become more aggressive now that he's lost his cage mates. I don't think he's yet 2 years old, a little over a year and a 1/2 I think. But yeah, I had considered getting him fixed, that might be the only other option if I can't get him to stop attempting to hurt the boys.
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
The babies are probably getting to the age of acquiring their unique male rat smell and this is setting off Filbert, making him too alpha.
Definitely don't leave him alone with the babies. But that's good that you are still making them meet and blocking him. Pongo nips at Filbert's face because he's giving him a warning.
I'd also get Filbert neutered.
Definitely don't leave him alone with the babies. But that's good that you are still making them meet and blocking him. Pongo nips at Filbert's face because he's giving him a warning.
I'd also get Filbert neutered.
mrnixonpants
Active Member
I'm feeling really discouraged. I've been intro'ing my new girl (well got her in October) Hadley to my existing 3 rats Derby, Brinkley, and Fievel. We've been taking things really slow. First the bathroom which they never play in, then free ranging in the bedroom which they rarely have ever played in, and we haven't made it to the couch which they always play on.
Hadley seems to get along with Fievel great! I mean they wrestle around a bit still, but it's all normal dominance wrestling and maybe playing - nothing seriously violent.
With Brinkley and Derby (my oldies) things are a completely different story. They don't seem to get along much at all. She seems different towards them than Fievel. More aggressive. Up until now no one had gotten seriously hurt. I read that with difficult intros sometimes getting them all together in a carrier and taking a scary car ride helps to bond everyone. We had a vet appointment tonight and were going to take a car ride anyway so I decided why not give it a shot? Well they all did great on the way to the vet and at the vet, but on the way home I heard a squeak. Brinkley has a pretty large gash on his shoulder.
Now I'm feeling really discouraged and upset and I'm afraid to even get them together again because of how icky his wound looks. It's a pretty deep gash. Derby got a little wound on her nose too, but nothing nearly as bad as Brinkley's. Maybe it was too long a meeting together. Or maybe too stressful for everyone (I brought a different carrier but everyone was doing so well I thought things were going great and it'd be okay to let them ride home together too)
I feel so dumb and upset. How do I move past this? I'm afraid to continue on with intros now and I know when I get upset/nervous the rats can tell and everyone is on edge. I know the no blood no foul rule....should I just assume that they won't be able to get along? Ugh I'm so completely upset right now. Difficult intros can be so discouraging and just make you feel so bad.
I guess I'm posting for advice but also to vent.
Edited to add: We gave her time to settle in before starting intros and started with cages near eachother, and swapping laundry before we tried actual face to face intros.
Hadley seems to get along with Fievel great! I mean they wrestle around a bit still, but it's all normal dominance wrestling and maybe playing - nothing seriously violent.
With Brinkley and Derby (my oldies) things are a completely different story. They don't seem to get along much at all. She seems different towards them than Fievel. More aggressive. Up until now no one had gotten seriously hurt. I read that with difficult intros sometimes getting them all together in a carrier and taking a scary car ride helps to bond everyone. We had a vet appointment tonight and were going to take a car ride anyway so I decided why not give it a shot? Well they all did great on the way to the vet and at the vet, but on the way home I heard a squeak. Brinkley has a pretty large gash on his shoulder.
Now I'm feeling really discouraged and upset and I'm afraid to even get them together again because of how icky his wound looks. It's a pretty deep gash. Derby got a little wound on her nose too, but nothing nearly as bad as Brinkley's. Maybe it was too long a meeting together. Or maybe too stressful for everyone (I brought a different carrier but everyone was doing so well I thought things were going great and it'd be okay to let them ride home together too)
I feel so dumb and upset. How do I move past this? I'm afraid to continue on with intros now and I know when I get upset/nervous the rats can tell and everyone is on edge. I know the no blood no foul rule....should I just assume that they won't be able to get along? Ugh I'm so completely upset right now. Difficult intros can be so discouraging and just make you feel so bad.
I guess I'm posting for advice but also to vent.
Edited to add: We gave her time to settle in before starting intros and started with cages near eachother, and swapping laundry before we tried actual face to face intros.
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
Please don't feel dumb and don't feel discouraged! We all go through the intro hardship. But we'll get through this.
I'll need their ages, genders and if they are altered. It would be really great if you could start your own thread in Behaviour, it will make things much easier to follow if we are focusing only on your colony.
I'll need their ages, genders and if they are altered. It would be really great if you could start your own thread in Behaviour, it will make things much easier to follow if we are focusing only on your colony.
mrnixonpants
Active Member
Okay I'll make a seperate thread including ages and genders.
odduckOasis
Well-Known Member
I just wanted to give an updated. ^.^ After several weeks and endless patience, I have successfully gotten my 3 boys living in the same cage and w/out neutering my oldest boy. I was worried about having him fixed since he's appx 2 years old.
BUT- what I ended up doing is finding this new techniqued called the 'Glove Rat'. You use gloves to block the aggressor rat from the newbie and absorb any attack the more aggressive one might do. It's also a way to keep everyone calm, cuz you keep your hand right by them. You do it in small intrevals so to make sure that everyone leaves with a calm feeling between them. And it worked really well! It still took a lot of time and I had to wait for them all to be ready. Finally I did a super cleaning of the cage and put Filbert in and then kept watching them over and over for several hours to check on them. For the first little while, the young boys were still a bit nervous and stayed up in the 'sputnik' hanging ball. Then! A few hours later, I came upstairs and saw this:
(Filbert, the older rat (the aggressor) and Dusty, one of the younger boys)
I was soooo happy I basically cried. And they have been living together happily for a few weeks now! Isn't that fabulous? The glove technique worked really well as well as reinforcement of good behavior (and reprimanding for bad behavior). So I'd def look into it you're having issues, just know it takes awhile and it's not a guarantee just like any other technique. You have to watch them at all times and some intro days might last less than a minute, depending.
But yay! So happy. ^.^ GL everyone else!
BUT- what I ended up doing is finding this new techniqued called the 'Glove Rat'. You use gloves to block the aggressor rat from the newbie and absorb any attack the more aggressive one might do. It's also a way to keep everyone calm, cuz you keep your hand right by them. You do it in small intrevals so to make sure that everyone leaves with a calm feeling between them. And it worked really well! It still took a lot of time and I had to wait for them all to be ready. Finally I did a super cleaning of the cage and put Filbert in and then kept watching them over and over for several hours to check on them. For the first little while, the young boys were still a bit nervous and stayed up in the 'sputnik' hanging ball. Then! A few hours later, I came upstairs and saw this:
(Filbert, the older rat (the aggressor) and Dusty, one of the younger boys)
I was soooo happy I basically cried. And they have been living together happily for a few weeks now! Isn't that fabulous? The glove technique worked really well as well as reinforcement of good behavior (and reprimanding for bad behavior). So I'd def look into it you're having issues, just know it takes awhile and it's not a guarantee just like any other technique. You have to watch them at all times and some intro days might last less than a minute, depending.
But yay! So happy. ^.^ GL everyone else!
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
That's really great news! I've started to do that with the blocking of the hand but not with gloves. It's a good tip!
dspch911
Senior Member
Oh boy, we started out all wrong.... We had an object in there they could all cuddle in..... We need to start over in a tub a guess so they are forced to deal with each other rather than just lay down and snuggle...... Back to the beginning....
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
If things are going good, don't go back a step.dspch911 said:
dspch911
Senior Member
I don't know if they are going good. We had the one fight, but they don't do anything really they just group together
and this is about how the hour goes - they come out a bit, but there is no playing or anything....
and this is about how the hour goes - they come out a bit, but there is no playing or anything....
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
The grouping together is good. They are finding comfort with each other. I would keep doing what you are doing, but remove the ball pit so the big boys don't get upset by it. But in a few days, add it again.
dspch911
Senior Member
We took it out after the fight
I haven't posted here in forever! but I have gotten some of my BEST intro advice here, so I am back 
so my crew has blown back up to 7, but I am having trouble getting most of them into 1 cage >.> so, two problems!
1) right now my main intros are between Sugar (barely over a year. not neutered) and 2 girls, Penny and Priya (about 9 months, both spayed). Sugar was having trouble with ladies because he was too aggressive with sniffing (he'd follow them everrrywhere sniffing hah). after knowing the girls a bit, this would progress to flipping/pinning. nothing horrible, he'd just get on their nerves. my poor awkward boy! but now the tables have turned and these new girls are harassing him! primarily Penny. Priya will help Penny gang up on him every now and then though hah. I am actually pleased with them being so direct with him, but Penny is escalating. she's now pulling on his ears (she has done this to Priya once or twice and is very much a wrestler/fighter. not aggressive, though it does cause gashes/scratches every now and then), nipping at his face, and pulling on loose skin on his neck. none of this is hard enough to cause squeaks, draw blood, etc. it is enough to cause boxing, kicking (from Sugar), and make Sugar avoid her. ie if Sugar sees Penny in a pop tunnel, he won't go in. BUT this behavior primarily happens when Penny is able to relax. she is high strung, so if they are out in the open with just tunnels to hide in, she leaves Sugar alone. if they are allowed under a blanket, she starts this behavior. they have done well with intros for a week or two until now. though I am not sure yet I would call intros BAD yet. does this seem like normal behavior they need to work through? or should I dial back intros a bit.
2) Pepper and CeeCee. my lovely 11 - 12 month old girls. they were who i was introing Sugar to before Penny and Priya. I would still like them in the group as well. here is the catch! they are insanely insecure in environments that is not the rat room. they will only sleep and do some mild exploration when out on a bed or couch. put them in their room? all over the place. if I try to do intros with other rats? well, they will tolerate them, but ignore them until they figure out a way off the couch/bed. once they figure out how to get off the furniture...intros are done. period. they will refuse to stay on the furniture, if you block their way, they will ignore the other rats and spend the whole time trying to get off the bed. the only thing I can think of doing is setting up a restricted area in the rat room and seeing if they will pay attention to the rats that way. they actually will sit in a carrier with Sugar without fighting, but they don't really acknowledge him either. they USED to acknowledge Penny and Priya (get puffy, some boxing, but no actual fighting), but now they ignore her too. any ideas on how to actually tell if they will get along? I have no clue how to safely progress the intros beyond the rat room idea.
so my crew has blown back up to 7, but I am having trouble getting most of them into 1 cage >.> so, two problems!
1) right now my main intros are between Sugar (barely over a year. not neutered) and 2 girls, Penny and Priya (about 9 months, both spayed). Sugar was having trouble with ladies because he was too aggressive with sniffing (he'd follow them everrrywhere sniffing hah). after knowing the girls a bit, this would progress to flipping/pinning. nothing horrible, he'd just get on their nerves. my poor awkward boy! but now the tables have turned and these new girls are harassing him! primarily Penny. Priya will help Penny gang up on him every now and then though hah. I am actually pleased with them being so direct with him, but Penny is escalating. she's now pulling on his ears (she has done this to Priya once or twice and is very much a wrestler/fighter. not aggressive, though it does cause gashes/scratches every now and then), nipping at his face, and pulling on loose skin on his neck. none of this is hard enough to cause squeaks, draw blood, etc. it is enough to cause boxing, kicking (from Sugar), and make Sugar avoid her. ie if Sugar sees Penny in a pop tunnel, he won't go in. BUT this behavior primarily happens when Penny is able to relax. she is high strung, so if they are out in the open with just tunnels to hide in, she leaves Sugar alone. if they are allowed under a blanket, she starts this behavior. they have done well with intros for a week or two until now. though I am not sure yet I would call intros BAD yet. does this seem like normal behavior they need to work through? or should I dial back intros a bit.
2) Pepper and CeeCee. my lovely 11 - 12 month old girls. they were who i was introing Sugar to before Penny and Priya. I would still like them in the group as well. here is the catch! they are insanely insecure in environments that is not the rat room. they will only sleep and do some mild exploration when out on a bed or couch. put them in their room? all over the place. if I try to do intros with other rats? well, they will tolerate them, but ignore them until they figure out a way off the couch/bed. once they figure out how to get off the furniture...intros are done. period. they will refuse to stay on the furniture, if you block their way, they will ignore the other rats and spend the whole time trying to get off the bed. the only thing I can think of doing is setting up a restricted area in the rat room and seeing if they will pay attention to the rats that way. they actually will sit in a carrier with Sugar without fighting, but they don't really acknowledge him either. they USED to acknowledge Penny and Priya (get puffy, some boxing, but no actual fighting), but now they ignore her too. any ideas on how to actually tell if they will get along? I have no clue how to safely progress the intros beyond the rat room idea.
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
What I would do is the whole gang on neutral ground for only a couple of days. Then I'd go to the rat room and see how they do there.
It sounds like your intros are doing good and progressing as it should but I would really get them all together. You may not see any evidence of things going good until weeks later, after they've moved in. It can take some rats a lot of time to adjust and accept.
It sounds like your intros are doing good and progressing as it should but I would really get them all together. You may not see any evidence of things going good until weeks later, after they've moved in. It can take some rats a lot of time to adjust and accept.
thank you, I'll definitely try that!
Penny and Priya are getting REALLY bossy with Sugar. they both had him on his side/back today and squeaking a bit (protest, no wounds). they are rowdy girls though. they have been wrestling since the day they came home with me. so it's a bit hard to tell how much Penny is baiting him into a wrestle and how much she is being dominant. she definitely won't leave him alone though. so I kind of think they need to have a few squabbles (no blood though!) and see if they can work it out or not. there will definitely be more squabbling once they move in. but so far no blood, just nerves! I am very hopeful
Penny and Priya are getting REALLY bossy with Sugar. they both had him on his side/back today and squeaking a bit (protest, no wounds). they are rowdy girls though. they have been wrestling since the day they came home with me. so it's a bit hard to tell how much Penny is baiting him into a wrestle and how much she is being dominant. she definitely won't leave him alone though. so I kind of think they need to have a few squabbles (no blood though!) and see if they can work it out or not. there will definitely be more squabbling once they move in. but so far no blood, just nerves! I am very hopeful
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
Usually, females with males mix very well. Squabbling could also be playing. But either way, keep at it.
lol Penny and Priya play squabble like no other rats I've ever met. Priya definitely play squabbles with Sugar. it's part being alpha and part play because you'll see her doing quick, jerky movements with it. it's hard to explain, but it's like when rats popcorn and everything they do is fast. it's at the same time playful, but definitely bossy playful.
Penny, I am having a much harder time reading. she's very much proving to be the silent alpha (the one who comes home with you, you think the other one is the alpha...and surprise! it's not XD). she keeps pulling his face. what is this about? sometimes she's puffy (well, as puffy as a double rex can get) when she does this, but she never ever causes more than a red spot. I mentioned it before, the ear pulling, pulling the face (loose skin near the eyes) and loose skin around the neck. I notice this escalating a bit. I also tried to get Pepper and CeeCee into the intros (I think I got 2 - 3 minutes out of them before they made it to the floor hah) and she was doing it to Pepper too. my assumption is she's asserting dominance, but since it's only escalating/continuing, I am concerned about progressing intros beyond the semi neutral stage. aside from just keeping at it (they have 1 hour intros every day. never less than 45 minutes even when I am in a time crunch), is there anything I can do?
Penny, I am having a much harder time reading. she's very much proving to be the silent alpha (the one who comes home with you, you think the other one is the alpha...and surprise! it's not XD). she keeps pulling his face. what is this about? sometimes she's puffy (well, as puffy as a double rex can get) when she does this, but she never ever causes more than a red spot. I mentioned it before, the ear pulling, pulling the face (loose skin near the eyes) and loose skin around the neck. I notice this escalating a bit. I also tried to get Pepper and CeeCee into the intros (I think I got 2 - 3 minutes out of them before they made it to the floor hah) and she was doing it to Pepper too. my assumption is she's asserting dominance, but since it's only escalating/continuing, I am concerned about progressing intros beyond the semi neutral stage. aside from just keeping at it (they have 1 hour intros every day. never less than 45 minutes even when I am in a time crunch), is there anything I can do?
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
The yanking, I've always related it to wanting them with them. Mothers do this a lot even to older children. I don't worry about that.
hmm, it's definitely more aggressive than yanking I've seen before. she does this to all new rats now (and Priya too).
she comes up beside them and maybe tries to do some bossy moves (ie get them to groom her, tries to groom their face) or just starts on the yanking or nipping. it's often more of a nip when it's on the face, but there's no mark. it definitely bothers Sugar (he tenses up when she comes up beside him) and sometimes she puffs up.
is that basically still in line with the behavior you've seen?
she comes up beside them and maybe tries to do some bossy moves (ie get them to groom her, tries to groom their face) or just starts on the yanking or nipping. it's often more of a nip when it's on the face, but there's no mark. it definitely bothers Sugar (he tenses up when she comes up beside him) and sometimes she puffs up.
is that basically still in line with the behavior you've seen?
