Do you guys think this would be a complete rat diet?

[Christie]

Hi. I just bought a 3lb bag of Oxbow Regal Rat a few weeks ago and my rats simply refuse to eat it. (there goes 20 bucks) lol. So now i'm back to whats available at the Grocery Store and Petsmart. Sooooo.......would this be 100% nutitionaly complete for my 2 little boys?:

- Authority Less Active dog food
- Large Flake Oats
- Puffed wheat
- Dried Bananas
- Dried crannberries
- Wholewheat pasta
- Flax seeds
- Rolled Barley
- Uncooked brown rice

- Fruits and Veggies everyday

Oh, and I dont want to use harlan teklad because I simly just dont agree that its a very good diet. Becuase it has plenty of corn, it's vegentarian and rats are omnivores and the ingredients are subpar. So please dont suggest that. I just have a different opinion, thats all. I also am unable to get Hagen nutriblocks or hamster extrusion. So what do you guys think?

 

[jorats]

Dog food and human grain mix will never be a nutritionally balanced diet for rats. Dog food is not energy dense enough for rats. Dried bananas and dried cranberries are pretty much just sugar. Your mix really lacks in some of the most important nutrients like vitamin K.
Rats are not truly omnivores, they would eat insects. I had my vet, her colleagues looked into a similar diet and a animal nutritionist as well, they all agreed it's not a good diet for rats.

I find it odd that you would disregard a food that has helped keep my rats slim, healthy and long living. It's not for nothing my rats live beyond 3 years old.

 

[LA]

I understand your concern about corn. It's used as a filler. But of the solids in Harlan, corn is the last on the list. So in my honest opinion I feel that is way better. I would rather give my rats a product with some corn and all the right nutrients and minerals then something without corn and lacking in specific important minerals and nutrients. My rats are very healthy on harlan, they have good weights, their fur and skin are excellent. So I understand your position but my position would be to feed the harlan hand down.

 

[Christie]

:doh: Ok...so what if I added some lab blocks in there. Like, have that mix with 1 lab block/rat everyday. I want animal protein in there diet and dog food is the way I'm going to do it. So what kind of lab block do you recommend? Harlan Teklad? :gaah:

 

[user 78]

Corn isn't last on the list of Harlan. Of the two popular formulas 2014 and 2018, ground corn is third and second, respectively.

No disrespect to your vet or the animal nutritionist, Jo, but all data on rats lists them as omnivores. Some info list them as opportunistic omnivores, but we've all known that they don't go out and hunt for meat like a cat or dog might. I do happen to agree with Ratlover that HT isn't the absolute best diet. I do have to say, though, that it's currently the best and most cost effective diet widely available. Because I do agree with Ratlover, in addition to their blocks I offer them animal protein as I have it available, whether a bit of fish, or beef, or chicken.

Ratlover, there are many people who feel the same way as you do, and have fed a modified Suebee's diet in place of a lab block. If fed properly, the weight gain and such that most people experience isn't always the result. The amounts given are smaller than most people give, and it's on a timed feeding schedule, not a free feed. Honestly, you just need to figure out what works best for you and your rats. If your rats gain excessive weight, or have health issues, you'll obviously need to alter their diet. Keeping good records of weights, average activity level, and all health problems will really help you track that.

As for your diet itself, I would remove the dried bananas and cranberries and only offer those occasionally. There's a company called Just Fruit who makes an organic, no sugar added, dehydrated fruit mix. That would be the best thing to use.
I've been told that flax seed is only any good if it's been ground up, so if you have a processor or mortar and pestle, I would do that. So that it doesn't become dust in the bottom of the bowl, maybe offer it in a soft food like baby food.
I'm not familiar with the Authority less Active Dog food, but you want to go over the ingredients listed in that. Make sure you're not adding double of what's already in there, such as the brown rice and barley. Many dog foods contain one or the other, especially senior and Light formulas. You can also call/email the company and ask them directly. I honestly would suggest seeing if you can find/afford a higher end dog food. There are many brands that are organic, lower protein, and have quality muscle meat instead of byproducts and organ meats.
Suebee herself, on another forum, once talked about her diet and how people used it very differently from how she had intended. It was quite some time ago, but I believe the proportions were something like 1/3cup of mix for 3 adult males given once a day, which was given in the evenings, with their "breakfast" of fresh foods given in the mornings. She would deduct any remaining amount from the next meal, so say they ate half of it, she would only top off half of it.

 

[jorats]

How would one address the vitamin K deficiency with a dog food and grain mix diet?
The animal nutritionist is not one for pets either, she researched it to follow what a wild rat would eat. But she also cautioned that the lifespan of a wild rat is 9 months, so again, even that is not entirely a good diet.

Corn is not only a filler, it's an energy source. I don't know why people have decided it's such a bad grain cereal.
It is rich in the antioxidants lutein and zeaxanthin and has been associated with lower risk of chronic diseases. Corn is a good source of many nutrients including thiamin (vitamin B1), pantothenic acid (vitamin B5), folate, dietary fiber, vitamin C, phosphorus and manganese.

Of course people can make up their own minds about what foods to feed. I know for me, I've spent a few years doing research and many times at the expense of my rats. My first crew fed a dog food and Suebee's mix were so fat, lazy and unhealthy, I was following what most people were doing, taking their advice as if it was based on scientific facts.
If someone could show me, prove to me that dog food and a grain mix is actually more healthy than what I'm feeding, I would definitely feed it to my rats. :nod:

 

[LA]

I didn't say last on the list. I said of the SOLIDS it was last, actually the last two solids, not including soy stuff and preservatives. I also said that that I understand what she was saying and it was my opinon only. I'm not pushing I'm just saying this is what I like giving my girls, I've seen good results with this food. I'm personally happy with it. Far be it from me to push anyone another way. Others can feed what they like and feel what they like that's fine. I'm just worried that with homemade stuff it's hard to get all the nutrients rats need. I would rather personally give them harlan then missing out on important stuff.

 

[user 78]

I'm sorry, LA, I read your response wrong. I had missed "solids" somehow when I originally read it.

As for any vitamin deficiency, there are a multitude of supplements that can be given to any animal. There's also the vitamin K that's in a variety of leafy greens, which can be offered as fresh foods. Just as we don't get everything we need out of everything we eat, there are ways to fix it. As for wild rats dying around 9months - they don't have resp infections treated, injuries seen to, constant sources of fresh food and water, climate controlled conditions, and kept safe from predators. I'm sure if exposed to all of that, no animal would survive for the 2-3yrs some expect.

Since Suebee and others managed to feed their rats this diet without winding up with fat, lazy, and dying at an early age rats, I'd say that it is viable that the diet is good when fed properly. Obviously, if your rats are getting overweight, or less active, you would need to alter their diet and go from there. I don't currently have any scientific fact since I don't have access to a lab and such, and no lab will take on the advantages and disadvantages of a home made diet just because I asked them to. If anyone does have access to a lab and control groups and such, and would like to take on the effort, I'd really appreciate it.

While corn may have all of those properties to it, it's also been referred to as a "cheap, useless filler" that offers "little to no nutritional value" to any species where Corn is used as a main ingredient. It's used as a cheap protein source, which is absolutely no use to most animals it's fed to since they don't process corn as a protein the way a true vegetarian would. I did a quick Google on corn as an ingredient, and I can't find a single article or webpage that says it's ever a good thing. Even bird lovers say it's a bad filler and not to give so much. I'm sure that everything you listed as corn having can be found in other items as well.

 

[CardboardCastles]

I want animal protein in there diet and dog food is the way I'm going to do it.

Why dog food when you could scramble an egg or diced up a little bit of boiled chicken breast, or even give a forkful of tuna? Wouldn't it be easier (not to mention cheaper) to just pull a little bit from what you'd be eating that day and set it aside for them?

(My girls are totally helping me with portion control on my diet, lol)

Dog food makes me wary, namely because we had a shepherd who ended up with a weird enzyme disorder because of a food we fed him for a month or two while we were financially pinched (he typically got Lamb & Rice, I can't remember the brand name, but its not one you can find in all stores, we have an awesome all natural mom and pop up by our vet). Our dogs AND cats now are on Wysong, though my cat will be very sad when I switch him back to Evolve when we move (he put on alot of weight with Wysong, and its too expensive for me to be buying him). I don't think I'd ever feed my rats dog food though, not even the high quality all naturals we get now...Not when they can eat "real people food".

 

[anita1216]

The problem with someone trying to work out their own diet is that not everyone will do exactly what they need to do everytime. I have noticed with a mix like Suebees people cant fine one ingrediant, they find a substitute. Pretty soon you have a heap of something that does not resemble the original food it was intended to be.

Sure you can add the fresh foods that have the proper vitamins, but what about when the rats dont eat them or dont eat enough?

I spend alot of time worrying rat diets. Yes, I use Harlan, at this point it has worked well for me and the rats love it. I dont believe that dogfood is a proper food source for rats and I cant get one vet to tell me different. I currently see three vets that specialize in exotics and not one of them will agree that dog food is a proper part of a rats diet. Its not nutrionally formaulated to meet the needs of rats. Even being part of a mix like Suebees, its just not a good full time food source. yes, I have had the vets look over the Suebees diet.

What to feed rats will always be a topic of debate. I suppose it really is what works best for your rats and what you can easily get them. If they are healthy and happy there goes all the proof any owner needs.

 

[jorats]

I knew I had a problem on my hands and asked my vet about the dog food and Suebee's mix when I noticed a couple of my rats only ate the sunflower seeds or pumpkin seeds and cheerios. They never ate the dog food, they never had any of the other grains. How do you make sure your rat eats everything to make up his nutrition? Some rats will be severely lacking.
The effects of some of the deficiencies are so severe, it's too late to try and remedy it.
As for vitamin K...if you can get your rat to eat one whole brussel sprout a day, then you'll have his daily requirement. I know mine wouldn't eat a whole one.

BTW, I didn't mean to suggest wild rats die because of poor diet. What I meant is that a wild rat can eat garbage and not have it affect him because he's never going to live long enough to know.

I didn't know Suebee's rats live to beyond 3 years...
People would have to follow her diet to a t. Many will substitute with whatever they find. We picked up 5 rats, the young girl told me they were fed a Suebee's mix she found online... I checked the huge bucket, it had corn pops, fruit loops mixed in with the other stuff. When those 5 girls were given blocks, they thrived, we then showed them their grain mix a couple of days later, they wouldn't even touch one!

Bottom line for me, I don't want to have to worry if say Captain got his chickpeas and oats along with his sunflower seeds and rice krispies. I know that in his blocks, he has everything he needs.

One of these days though... I'd love to do a complete homemade diet. My brother in law is a really good cook and can do all the calculations and know which food has what nutrients, he's become quite the health guru. I'll get him to put together something and once again, I'll bring it to my vets and her colleagues to tell me what they think. :thumbup:

 

[user 78]

Cardboardcastles - Dog food is actually less expensive since, considering a person's own diet, it contains a set amount of ingredients. It also has a shelf life, which means it's okay that your rat doesn't eat it immediately. Just a protein source isn't a complete diet. If it was fed in addition to a block or something, then sure. Dog food and blocks have other things added to it to make it a "whole" food.

Making a homemade diet is the owner's personal responsibility. Obviously if they add in things that are high in sugar, fat, etc.. they will not get the desired results or nutritional value. One can only hope that if they care enough not to like the ingredients of commercially available foods, that they're willing to make the effort to offer as complete a diet as they're able to, and with the quality ingredients they wanted in the first place. I'm not going to include the people who want a homemade mix because it'll be somehow cheaper or easier for them. Saying that irresponsible owners have fed horrible mixes is no different than the owners who bought the cheap blocks at the pet store. Or the people who feed their dogs Ol Roy, or their cats Friskies. There are responsible owners out there who are willing to understand and actually try to give a wholesome diet. In those cases, specifically, a homemade mix would be a viable diet.

As for vitamins deficiencies and rats not eating what you give them, or enough of it, that would be where supplementation comes in. I know many people who give vitamin supplements to their rats, despite being on a well balanced diet. It varies from HT, other forms of block foods, or homemade mixes.

I don't know how long Suebee's rats lived specifically. I know they weren't under a year or anything like that. As for living 3+yrs, I don't know very many owners who can claim that at all, regardless of diet.

 

[LA]

It's ok Kat, thought you might have missed it.

Jo you get that diet I want to know.

 

[user 78]

I just went and checked Suebee's Diet, and I notice she's made several changes to her diet. Which, again, emphasizes that the diet does need to be altered from time to time.

I like most of her changes, and I see that she's mentioned the Just Tomatoes line of dehydrated fruits/veggies. She's also changed to a higher quality food than the original Innova she was using.

 

[jorats]

That's great that Suebee keeps changing it, that means she's always researching. I like that.
I also am so pleased that we can have a civil discussion on rat food. I've seen it so many times on other forums where people get so upset and start flaming.
I do encourage others that feed the Suebee's and dog food to put in their 2 cents, especially if their rats are healthy and long living this would definitely prove that it's not a diet to disregard.
I'll have to ask Suebee if I can post her diet here as an alternative because I know there are tons of people that don't have access to high quality blocks. We'd have to stress how important it is for them to follow the diet exactly.

 

[CardboardCastles]

Dog food is actually less expensive since, considering a person's own diet, it contains a set amount of ingredients. It also has a shelf life, which means it's okay that your rat doesn't eat it immediately. Just a protein source isn't a complete diet. If it was fed in addition to a block or something, then sure. Dog food and blocks have other things added to it to make it a "whole" food.

I was commenting on the fact that they were using the dog food as a source of animal protein. I didn't mean that you should feed them what you have yourself and nothing else, lol, my poor babies wouldn't get very much if I did that, I meant in conjunction with a lab block. If its really the protein you're looking for, instead of substituting dog food for lab blocks, why not feed them lab blocks and protein rich foods?

Right now I use HT 2018, I hemmed and hawed and kept going back and forth over which HT to order and finally settled on the 2018 because thats what Kim's Ark recommended. So far my girls love it, and aren't putting on too much weight too fast. When I got my rescue babies, I had to feed soy formula and baby cereal, and my bigger girls got a little pudge going from eating the leftovers that the babies wouldn't eat.

Now, I do HT (about a handful in the bowl every day, it takes them a day and a half to eat it) fresh or frozen veggies every day, mostly they get peas, though they love cucumber and lettuce, I just dont' think the lettuce is much more than water, honestly...They hated carrots, they used them as airborne missiles to take out the napping cat. So far every fruit I've tried they snub their noses at....no big deal, fruit is expensive. And then 3 times a week they get either chicken, egg, tuna, some kind of something or other that is protein. I have 4 girls, I give them one large egg between the 4, and typically, thats more than enough, so I cut about the same size piece of chicken and dice it up tiny, and tuna I only do two forkfuls.

 

[jorats]

Just out of curiosity, why do some believe rats need more protein?

 

[SQ]

I was wondering what expertise and how much time went into Suebees diet ...
I would hope that someone developing a diet for animals would have excellent knowlege of their nutritional needs as well as the nutritional content of foods, how the content interacts, etc. Did someone with the educational background to understand those things work over a long period of time to develop this diet ... Does it have scientific research to back it up ....

I know that Debbie Duccommun, who does have training in nutrition, years of experience, and consults her vet, has a homemade diet that is susposed to be very good - and she has stated that the Suebees diet is lacking in several areas.

Many people suppliement the Suebees diet with dog food (as opposed to lab blocks) ... and in the last few years we have all heard how good that is :doh: Many people with dogs no longer feed dog food because of the many health concerns and lack of nutrition. Do people who feed their rats dog food buy the best brands that actually use good ingrediants instead of crap - doubt many do because it would be more expensive.

Lab blocks for rats are big business when you think of the money labs spend on buying it. They have been developed by people educated about nutrition, etc. over years of research.

IMO, it only makes sense to feed rats Harlan (2014, 2016 or possibly 2018), Oxbow Regal rat, or as a last resort Hagan-Living World Hamster extrusian blocks. Although blocks are nutritionally complete, people suppliment the blocks with daily veg.s, occassional fruit, other healthy foods occassionally, and perhaps occassional cooked fish, meat, chicken.

If someone decides to use a home made diet then I would suggest Debbie D.`s diet - but I have heard it isn`t cheap, good ingrediants cost money .....

As for the question: Do you guys think this would be a complete rat diet?
My answer would be no, but I don`t have the educational background nor the years of research experience to be able to suggest how to make it a good diet.

 

[CardboardCastles]

Its not really that I believe they need more or less, I just feel like a mean mommy when I've got food and they all come and crowd at the corner of the cage and give me those big sad "I want some too" eyes. So rather than caving every day, we have it set up to a Monday Wednesday Saturday schedule.

 

[jorats]

Its not really that I believe they need more or less, I just feel like a mean mommy when I've got food and they all come and crowd at the corner of the cage and give me those big sad "I want some too" eyes. So rather than caving every day, we have it set up to a Monday Wednesday Saturday schedule.

lol!! I hear ya. :thumbup: