Zen-has passed. -notice to rat train adopters

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T

twitch

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
1,485
Location
Dartmouth, NS
Zen was q-ball from the rat train. he was originally a foster but due to health reasons he remains in permanent foster here (aka adopted by us). the problem with his heart is a suspected disfunctional valve in his heart. it doesn't close all the way. however, its not heart that is worrying me now.

Zen has been on amoxil since his first vet visit, and it cleared up his pneumonia wonderfully. so about 32 days or 6 weeks. on thursday it seemed to stop working and his breathing started to become labored again, he started to get sleepier but still better then when he arrived. beign on the same antibiotics for so long i'm not surprised that his body may have adapted. it could be a fluid build up too so we started him on furosimide (sp?) (liquid lazix) today to see if that helps. still not too concerned on the that front, we expected this.

what's bothering me is this: thursday night i thought i may have seen a head tilt. it was so slight i thought i may have been seeing things though. friday, late morning i took zen to see the vet to pick up his furosimide and get checked out. his head tilt became VERY pronouced overnight to the point his head is almost twisted sideways. and now he was spinning to the right. the vet prescribed chloramphenicol paluitate as the antibiotic and prednisone for the steriod. she didn't have any on hand, (the only antibiotic she had there was amoxil) but about 5 years ago i had gotten the same stuff with a prescription from a vet for my cat. so i tried the phamasave. no luck. they no longer carry it as there is better antibiotics for humans now. tried my other vet, she's on vacation and i mixed up the times i thought they were open and got the other clinic instead. they don't have the medication anyway and the soonest they could get it would be monday and the other vet (the one i hate) will need to see the rat first anyway, again, not til monday... so the soonest i can get meds to him is monday. crap :gaah:

but even that is not concerning me as much as how zen would have been able to develop a inner ear infection in the first place. he's been on antibiotics all this time. he shouldn't have been able to get another infection while on them could he? this leads me to suspect a PT, and a very fast growing one at that given how fast the symptoms progressed. but he's still young yet for that, only 14 months old. it is possible that clark mistook his age and zen is actually older, but as he was only a tiny baby when he arrived there and had been there ever since i would think he would have had a fine judge of his age.

so what do you think? i'm hoping its a inner ear and we're going to treat for it to see (even as a PT it would be the same treatment anyway). but it seems suspcious and very fast progressing, so i suspect a PT. i haven't been at the start of a inner ear though so i don't know what the norm is for its progression.

today, zen is very sleepy. worse today then the day before. he seems worse as each passes. he's scared me and the boyfriend a couple times today thinking that he was dead (was just very asleep, thank god). he seems to be nearly as bad as when he first got here. his eyes aren't opening nearly as much as they were before, nor as often. we're very concerned.

edit:got my days mixed up. all fixed now.
edit2:typos-english i's types its goods! :roll:
 
That is scary to see him go downhill so fast. Do you have the prednisone? If not, you could try Metacam if you have it, or even another NSAID like Motrin as an anti-inflammatory until you can get the prescribed meds on Monday. And do you have any Baytril?

When my Clara (aged one) developed an inner ear infection a few weeks ago, it was the weekend. All I had was Clavamox, Baytril and Metacam. I started her on that combo until I could get her in to see the vet on Monday. He got me to continue with that, but later switched the Clavamox to Azithromycin for the last two weeks and discontinued the anti-inflammatory once she was responding to the abs.

I hope that Zen doesn't have PT. Fourteen months does seem awfully young.
 
Poor sweet Zen. If he has a heart condition already he's already compromised. Were you able to get the steroid? If you did start him on that along with his amoxi until Monday.
 
i have the steroid from bribery. he's only on it now for the side effect of increased appetite though, so we have lots. we also have amoxil as twix is on that for a suspected infection (lower glands are swollen). but the amoxil didn't seem to be helping, though i guess it may be because his lungs aren't infected and its the heart condition rather then building a tolerance for it?

so because of his heart the way it is (thus compromising his immune system), even though he was on the amoxil until yesterday, he could still develop an inner ear infection? is that right?
 
Rats need to be on an antibiotic when on pred as pred lowers the immune system.
Also when taken off pred if it was used longterm, it must be very gradual, cutting the dose in half every 3 days or more until they are getting a tiny dose every 3 days.

Is he on heart meds?
Burrell has CHF and is on 5 meds.

Hope you can start him on the steriod and an antibiotic now and then get things worked out with the vet on Monday. Baytril or azithromycin might be a better choice for the antibiotic over the weekend but you will have to make due with whatever you have available.

Caleb was on chloramphenicol paluitate for awhile.
It had to be made up by a compounding pharmacy.
The pharmacy in Keswick, just outside of Fredericton ordered it in and compounded it.
They may still have some in stock that their pharmacy could compound for you.
 
It is important to treat inner ear infections early and aggressively.
So yes, it would be important to start him on the pred and whatever antibiotic you have available, now.
 
He'd need to be on some sort of antibiotic, just because of the prednisone. So keeping up with the Amoxi while giving him the pred until you can get him in will have to do for now. Unfortunately, the steroid only seems to work to prevent permanent head tilt if it's given shortly after symptoms start, such as within the first 24hrs or so.

That being said, if his immune system is already that compromised, it wouldn't matter that he was already on Amoxi. If he was on a super high dosage, then I would think PT before I thought inner ear infection. Since he's most likely on a more normal range dose, I'd go ahead and treat it as an ear infection.

As a side note : My sweet Prissy Penns has been on a high dose of Baytril and Pred since last October for a suspected PT. She started off with some blood in her ear, which then progressed into the classic symptoms. I've had to alter her dosage of everything over the last several months, slowly raising it as eventually they do develop a tolerance to the pred. She's doing amazingly well still. Long past when I thought I'd have to say good bye.
 
quick update then i'm off to the vet for some help.

i gave him the amoxil and pred as suggested. it doesn't seem to have helped much but if this is a strain that amoxil let in then it would go to reason its not going to kill it. i believe other people have suggested this.

he is also on furosimide for his heart congestion. it is the only med appropriate for his heart condition. his problem is not that his heart is not beating as fast as it should but that his valve is not working properly (a leaky valve in layman's terms-can't spell the medical term) and so his blood pressure is down and he gets fluid build up. it seems to have helped in his breathing quite a bit but because of the pain (and he has been showing pain, owie stretches and distress bruxxing) in his ear from the infection (or his head from the PT-but we can treat a ear better then we can a PT and the symptoms are roughly the same) he's gone off his food and water.

i've been using pedilyte forced down his throat every 20 mins (normally i can only get in 0.1-0.2ml at a time) to try to keep him hydrated and i try to force ensure and baby cereal into him every couple hours (mostly without any success) but especially when its time to take the pred. in any case its not been enough. so i'm calling the vet and getting him in this morning to get some subq fluids in him and to get the antibiotic. either clavamox or chlropalm, whichever one i can get my hands onto first. hell i would even take a high dose of baytril at this point.

it still concerns me how fast this is progressing and how much pain zen is obviously in but if we can get him hydrated, maybe some pain meds and a nice good strong blast of some antibiotic we may be able to lick it. trying something is better then doing nothing or giving up though.

how fast should i see improvement with meds for a inner ear approximately? i want to be able to give the drugs a chance to work but i don't want zen to go through pain needlessly if its not going to. its a tricky balance.
 
Poor Zen. :( Inner ear infections take awhile to show improvement and a cure. Its a long haul thing where you will have to judge when its not working :(

The pred did nothing?
 
not that i noticed. but he's feeling so bad at this point... he's not really wanting to move much at all and when he does he kinda just drags himself. i'm hoping this is due to the dehydration. we have an appointment in the hampton clinic for 10:30 but they're going to try to squeeze me in sooner if possible so after i grab some food for myself adn feed the rest of the furkids and human kid i'm going to go sit in the waiting room.

i also haven't been able to get much food down him and with pred you are supposed to make sure to eat before dosing so it doesn't upset the stomach. i'm thinking i haven't been able to get enough food down and he's feeling ucky from that too. the degree of his tilt hasn't gotten any worse since starting the pred though. the tilt is bad but its not as sideways as serraphim's, if he was standing i don't think it would look quite so bad. but between the dehydration and the ucky tummy, poor zen doesn't really want to do much other then sleep. i can't say i blame him.

his breathing has improved a great deal from the furosimide though. when he's not feeling pain his breathing speed is just about normal for a healthy rat. the vet was concerned it wouldn't help and its encouraging that it has. right now i'm trying to cling to positive of all this but even then... *sigh* its just not fair. zen has been through so much. he deserves a nice happy and long healthy life. this head tilt was not what he needed. the sweet dear.... its just not fair
 
just got back from the vet. he got his subq fluids. 24cc's in fact. he was absorbing some of it as they were putting it in. so that's a good sign. the vet said to keep an eye on the bubble though and if it isn't completely absorbed in 6 hours we could be looking at circulatory shutdown. the fact that he as absorbing some at the vet's office is encouraging though.

he will be starting apo-sulfatrim with his pred at noon. i'm to continue trying to force feed him of course. but regardless he's to get the meds. the vet is hopeful that once he's feeling more hydrated he'll be more interested in eating.

as for the furosimide i'm to use my own judgement. we are trying to work out his hydration though so it was suggested to take him off it for a day or two to help give him a chance to get back on his feet. but the furosimide is there to help with the fluid build up to help him breathe. its going to be a balancing act.

in the end its going to be another very long day and night for me. my allergies are hating me and i'm working on very little sleep. i'm doped up on gravol and excredrin to manage the symptoms. zen is so sick that all he wants if is to cuddle and be held. i can't deny him that. i'm hoping he'kll be easier to feed soon though. that would help out a lot for me. at least for my piece of mind. thankfully the BF doesn't go to work until 4pm today and my best friend is still here. between the 2 of them they wil be able to help me stay awake and take care of the human child as well. though he is only 5 he is very understanding for his age. he told me to put zen on the couch because that's where you g when you're sick and asked me what zen wanted to watch on tv too... he even tucked zen in the blanket... he's such a good big brother! :heart:
 
Poor Zen, I sure hope he fights hard and gives you a break and start eating. How very sweet for Zen to have his very own 5 year old nurse. :heart:
 
zen is doing much better now. he's derinking from a water bottle as i type. he's eating better for me now. instead of just letting it drip from his mouth when he's done he's pushing the syringe away with his hand instead now too. which is loads better then he was doing yesterday. he's still very weak and tired but he's showing less signs of pain. he's not up all the way on his feet yet when he walks but he's not dragging himself like he used to either. he even tried to wash his face and gentials late this evening. he failed miserably but he the fact that he actually tried is very encouraging. still not eating on his own yet so we're going to be syringe feeding every 2 hours. we're hoping he continues to improve just as fast.
his regular vet is back in tomorrow and i'll be calling to let her know what's happened. depedning on how he's m,aking out i may walk him down for more subq fluids before she closes at 3. i'm hoping he won't need it but i don't want him to get in that bad a state again. with him drinking from the water bottle though i think he's going to be fine though.
 
Maybe your vet will teach you how to do the sub-q at home? Its invaluable to know with the rats especially when you have a few. It can save a life you normally couldn't with just oral meds and the waiting time to get the meds built up in their system.

He sounds like he is feeling a wee bit better, especially with the grooming attempt and drinking from the bottle.

I have my fingers tightly crossed he keeps going in this direction! :heart:
 

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