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SQ

SQ

Senior Member - Vegan for the animals
Joined
Jul 21, 2007
Messages
17,208
Location
central New Brunswick Canada
OK,
These people love the rats, no question but ...

1. - they use a ball for rat to run in and say the rat loves it ...

2. - they spray the rats in the rear end with water if they do something they don't like, such as get off the futon.

3. - they put leashes on the rats and take them out to "rat friendly" places on their shoulders. They walk around outdoors with them on their shoulders.

4. - They have "trained" the rats and one of the two young girls will sit on the shoulder for 30 min or longer and not move. The other young girl will move a bit. Neither of the young girls acted like rats when I saw them shoulder sitting.

My comments:

1. I have cautioned them re the dangers of using those balls but they continue to use it. .... I would think that if the rat loves running around in a ball then the rat must not be getting to free range, climb, etc.

2. Sounds horrible to me.
Doesn't sound like treating a rat with kindness.

3. Sounds dangerous to me.
Rats will be exposed to all sorts of people, animals and diseases.
Carrying them outside like that sounds very very dangerous.

4. Rats are pets not fashion accessories. They should be able to act like rats.
Those two girls did not act like rats.
Don't know what they did to get two healthy approx 3 month old rattie girls to sit still on shoulders for that length of time but ....

Your thoughts please.
 
My take on this... these people sound like they are devoted to their rats. The rats get to go with mom and dad where ever they go, be it on the shoulder or on leash. The ball is not that bad of a thing. I remember once a girl in my town asked me to help her with her cage. When I went over, I was mortified to see her rats in those balls. I was about to give her the speech until I saw the rats go everywhere and really had a ball in them. (no pun intended) The rats would so look forward to going into their ball, they each had one, the really big ones and knew exactly how to maneuver them. Yes, it's true that they don't get the climbing effect from it but they are still getting lots of exercise.
Before I made a rat room for my rats, the most they had was shoulder ride and playing on my kitchen table which was not very big. This was not ideal for them but they sure were loved. I've taken mine outside before and the only reason I don't still do it is because I have too many.
How does the cage look? Is it clean? Are the girls clean and healthy looking? It really does sound like these people are spending a lot of time with their babies.
Now, I could be totally wrong because I wasn't exactly there to see the rats body language or their habitat or how the people actually held them.
 
I rescued 3 girls and the only exercise was their ball. Just to satisfy my curiosity I showed them their ball and they actually jumped in it and off they went. But once they had out time here they never went back to that ball. Did the rats look content with their owners? Do they "fight" the leash? It is hard to judge others.
 
I am a hater of runabout balls. They were originally made for hamsters with their low-slung bendy bodies, but a rat that has its back arched the other way will always be reaching up and can possibly strain or injure their back eventually. With a wheel they can always get off, but they are trapped inside a ball and cannot. :(

Rats by instinct (since they have such poor eyesight) depend on their sense of smell to suss out predators...you will often find rats in balls with their noses plastered to the air holes just like rats in aquariums are often trying to smell up top. I was a person who used one long ago until I found that my rat fought me and even though she could move around and get her exercise really wasn't happy with it.

I think rats get used to things, and are adaptable rather than truly enjoying this sort of exercise over any other.

The other things don't sound dire to me, but they also don't sound like the type of people willing to listen to advice :(
 
lilspaz68 said:
I think rats get used to things, and are adaptable rather than truly enjoying this sort of exercise over any other.
Click to expand...

I don't completely agree with this statement. I do agree that rats adapt truly well and this is the beauty of rat. The rats I saw, really enjoyed their balls and I've visited them several times. Their backs were not arched either, but they were petite females...also, their noses were not plastered to the little holes. Some rats really do enjoy it. Same with the ones mamarat had... they loved their balls, they felt secure and happy in them. I think it all depends on the rats. Some like it, some don't. Of course the bigger rats shouldn't be allowed in those balls.
 
I would just like to say that my girls really liked their balls and they each had their own and would only jump in the one that belonged to them. It was amazing to watch them. There never was any poop either in the balls. Their previous owner had started them quite young (2months) and I still have a girl left of that group. Ella will be 35 months in Aug. Mimi just passed away at almost 32 months. I don't think it was detrimental to their health either.
 
1) I am one of many who can't really let their rats "free range".. their out time is usually on my shoulders, on the kitchen table or in my bed. So if these girls are enjoying their balls, then the situation can't be that bad. If they are spending all their out time in the balls, though... that'd not be so good.

2) I've not done a lot of "training" of my rats, so I don't know how else one would condition them against something. Water bottles are often used in dog training to help with certain problem areas... it's not unkind to divert their attention elsewhere to get their mind off what it is they are doing wrong. A blast to the butt is certainly better than a smack in the nose. I'm sure the rats then put their attention to grooming off the water.... and we know they love to groom! Sometimes you need to be unkind to keep a kiddo safe.

3) Emma used to sit in the hood of my sweatshirts and go on walks with me. As long as they are being very careful and the rats don't fight the leashes like crazy then I'm doubtful this is a problem. Taking your rat on a walk in January might not be a good idea though... :lol:

4) I really can't comment on this one... as Jo said, we can't see it in action. Do them seem scared or wary or are they just chillaxin' ? Maybe the girls just really really like shoulder riding? Maybe ask them how exactly they "trained" them?
 
Hmm my take on this:

1. Not too fond of the balls, I'm worried a toe or something would get caught in the little slits.
2. Wayne read somewhere that rats do not learn from negative reinforcement, but do from positive reinforcement.
3. Mine don't like the leash, they always try and get out of it. I know some members have a harness and use it on theirs to take them out onto the grass.
4. Is the rat happy on the shoulder?
 
Thanks for your comments.

1. The girls are suposed to be getting free range time in a small area ... so why would they enjoy balls?

3 & 4. My concern re the rats on the shoulder, besides the dangers - we have predatory birds and a frightened rat can disappear pretty fast outdoors or in a strange, large building
... not talking about shoulder rides in their home or even in their yard (which is dangerous enough) ....

The girls didn't act happy, curious, or afraid
..... one young girl was pretty much frozen during the entire visit, the other moved from one shoulder to the other but didn't move much and was refered to affectionately as "trouble".

I have had my rats various places and at times I have had one shoulder sit on me
..... mine have displayed curosity, and fear ...... they were active,
Recently Noelle scrambled off my shoulder and dived up godmother's sleeve as Noelle was feeling a bit scared when I took her out the car to meet a family friend at a gathering.

These two girls did not act like rats, they just sat there for a very, very long time ...
with their leases tied onto them ....
and we all know how active girls at that age are ....

I know that people vary in how they care for rats and there are many good ways of doing things ... but the behaviour the 2 girls displayed concerns me ...
Initially I thought fear might be part of their behaviour but after recently seeing how my rats reacted in a strange situation, I don't think it had anything to do with fear ... frightened rats try to get away or burrow into your clothes, etc.
 
Hmm, I would not expect them to like the runabout balls if they have a big freerange area. Interesting.
 
1. I'm not fond of balls with rats, and my boys have always been fearful of the ball when I try to weigh them in it, so I have never used them myself. I prefer freeranging the rats, but if others have had no negative experiences with the balls, then I don't think it is doing any harm really. It is important that the parents are aware of signs of over exertion to avoid issues. They should also be getting freerange time without the balls, the balls should not be replacing freerange time.
2. Hmmm...I spray Horatio when he is trying to kill Anastasia, and would use it if a fight were to break out during rat introductions, but I consider it an extreme measure that I would only use if injury could be a result of their actions. I just let the rats out where I am not concerned with damage and just let them do what ratties do. I believe in making adjustments to accommodate them, not punishing them for their instinctual behaviour and immense curiosity. Curiosity and exploration are what rats are all about and accommodations need to be made by rat parents to let them be that way.
3. I have had rats that have done well on leash, and have taken boys with me in their rat pouch, but I am always so freaked out that they could be harmed or get away from me that I don't do it anymore. I haven't done it in a long time, not since Magic and Reggie were alive. I guess, as long as the rat is completely safe, then I don't think it is a bad thing to take them out and about. I never had any negative results of taking my boys out, and they really enjoyed themselves.
4. I don't think that many of us here are too into really serious training of our rats, unless it is litter training, and I think that it can be fun and beneficial for them. The way they are trained is important, that it is only positive training and not punishment, but I don't think it is a bad thing that they are well trained. I think that they are smart and stubborn enough that if they really hate doing what they are being trained to do, then they just wouldn't do it. As long as they are not being abused or punished during training, then I think they are smart enough that they would just be jumping off and not sitting still - unless they get something positive from it.

From your description overall, I would also be a bit concerned but would be trying to work with them and ensuring that their actions are not abusive or putting the rats in any danger when they are taking part in these activities. I think that they need to be a bit more accommodating of the rats, and to understand their basic natures a bit more. If these are the first rats that they have had, then the rats are going to be very novel to them and they will be very enthusiastic to do all the things they have read about. I would keep in touch with them long term and make sure that this novelty does not wear off later on.
 
The not moving on the shoulder is somewhat of a concern, I think. Some rats just freeze when scared. The best way to know if they are in this state, put your hand on their body, you will feel them shake inside.
 
I agree with Jo and Mamarat on the ball.....It is not my favorite thing but I have seen rats love it and if used properly I don't think it is cruel.....
I have taken my rats outdoor and with me on car drives and such...Sometimes I take my boys with me to the shelter....they love it. But I know I am very careful and never let my guard down...I would guard them with my life.....
I have used water spritz in my training...more so with my cats then my rats (mainly because my rats are perfect :)

If it was me I would talk with these people, express my concerns in a caring manner and talk with them about this. This has always worked for me....by talking with them and getting to know them and feel more comfortable with them you will know if this is a good home or not.....go with your instincts...they have a way of being right.
 
I rely completely on my boys' reactions to things. What people "think" is not always accurate.

Some rats adore their balls... others don't. Some rats love being "trained", others do not. Some of my boys are active and busy... others are lazy and squishy and want nothing more than to lounge on my shoulder for a decade while I do household things.

I make every effort to keep my personal ideas of what my rats like to a bare minimum. Rats have the same versatility of character that all living things do. One rat's Heaven is another rat's hell. If Roquefort wants a 20 minute body scratch then he gets one. If he changes his mind and decides that he wants to be off to powergroom Albert then he is free to go.

My boys all hate the lovely Wodent Wheel I bought for them, and won't touch it. No problem. It is tucked away in their storage container. Sometimes I put it out, just to see if their attitudes have changed. They haven't yet... but that's ok.

The only time I will voice my opinion on what rats like is when they are sick and dying through neglect and filthy circumstances (like that one woman who briefly showed up here when we were all in a rage over the fact that Summer had no more jawbone!).

Owners are generally best able to determine the personalities of their babies because they interact with them daily. I personally don't want my boys to have those running balls, but I have no problem with others getting them for their rats. What is important is that the owner is acutely aware and accommodating of the rat's reactions and preferences.

Like with all "children"... rats are multi-faceted. Like us, they have their preferences and their pet peeves. A soul is a soul.... it doesn't matter what "casing" it is in.

My personal opinion for what it's worth. :wink:
 
This is interesting. The shoulder thing is a little strange. My rats get very comfortable on my shoulder, but certainly move around. But once Calvin was on my shoulder, and I think he fell asleep, 'cause he was perfectly still for like an hour while I read. It was nice, but I didn't force him.
 
My bad for coming late, but I have to comment on the taking them out and about because I do it *a lot*.

Pretty much everyone knows (some of) my rats go outside from my photos. I've often explained in threads I've made with pics of them outside what precautions I take and how it's not for every rat, and you really have to know how your rat (your rat, who is an individual with his or her own likes and dislikes) reacts.

Denny goes every where. He goes in the car to the pet supply store. He goes to fairs and festivals. He goes with me when I go to shoot, always out doors. He goes when we travel to someone's house who is rat friendly. He goes. And I TRULY believe he enjoys it. And I don't mean enjoys it meaning he tolerates it. I believe he benefits from it and thoroughly enjoys meeting new people and new experiences. At the same time, we're educating people. Never have I taken him somewhere and NOT had someone say "Well I didn't know they could do that... What else do they do?" And that gives me an opportunity to educate and talk to people about rats, who we all know are highly misunderstood. Does that outweigh the danger factor? No. Of course not. But I've never seen it as overtly dangerous. I have to be cautious, yes, I have to be aware and observant. It's no different than when I take my son or the kids I baby sit somewhere. I look out for people who may not be safe, animals, cars, smells, sounds, everything you can think of. If I have a bad feeling, then Denny will stay at home that day or we'll stay in the car. I know what he can and can't handle, but let me tell you, there's not much he can't. Because that is his personality. He is naturally outgoing and super friendly... He thrives off of human contact, be it me or complete strangers, he loves it. He does not spook, he does not get frightened. He is so used to everything, fire works, loud music and people, even gun fire (4th of July parade). Nothing fazes him, probably because he is the most trusting rat I've ever met. He seems to know that if he's with me, nothing bad will happen. We don't go to places where there are other rats. I know how unsafe that is. We don't go into pet stores where there are other animals, period. We don't go to "animal functions". We go to "people" functions where animals happen to be allowed.

Having said that, no, it is not for every rat. I wouldn't dream of taking Andi and Tip out the way I do Denny. The girls, probably never. Because that is their personality. For Andi and Tip, it would stress them, as individual rats who have their own likes and dislikes, and would not add anything to *their* quality of life. For the girls, they're far too active for me to trust that they won't spook or make a run for it at a random time. Also, fast moving rats seem to wig people out more than a rat who will sit calmly on your shoulder or in your shirt.

I don't know. I just wouldn't want anyone to think I was a bad person because I take Denny places. One could argue that my doing so has done some sort of good for the rat community because every where we go, every time, there is at least one person who we meet who comes away with a better and far more accurate view on rats. This doesn't make him a fashion accessory. Maybe an educator, a very much beloved rat, and often many people's first rat encounter, but never an accessory.
 
Denny obviously enjoys his trips with you Cait... just by looking at him, you know he's got a terrific mom. SQ was concerned primarily by the rats reaction while on the shoulder. But I do think that with time and constant shoulder rides some rats can become used to it and actually look forward to it. My Ness, my first heart rat was like that. If she could go everywhere with me, she was super happy.
 
Oh yes, I know she was concerned about those girls being so still... That would worry me, too, as I know my girls would never sit still for any amount of time, let alone 30 minutes! :p
 
The chances of a rat being hurt when out, are like the chances of your child being kidnapped if they ride the subway. Very low, but everyone worries about. I've taken my rats to the pet shop. But not Riff or Kori, as they would not do that there. This is a clean pet store that does not sell rats or mice, and Calvin loved his stay, the owner gave him a peanut butter dog biscuit. On the other hand, if I took Riff there, he'd get excited and go nuts, and probably jump out of whatever he was being carried in, or at least try to get out. He must know what's going on! He also liked to jump off shoulders, and was a little psyco. It really depends on the rat.

A calm rat can go virtually anywhere.
 

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