To Euthanize...or not!

[Dahlas]

I decided to start this post because of a few comments made on another post. One about a vet not doing an e-spay because it went against her morals and ethics. Another comment was that morally people wouldn’t approve of spays after a certain time because they would consider it an abortion.
I am not by any way shape or form saying I agree with taking a life....in any way. I love animals and in a perfect world none would be conceived that were not wanted. Every birth would be considered the miracle that it is.....but I do not live in a perfect world.

I didn't start this to start an argument I just thought it might be a good way to hear other peoples point of views. Some of us work in rescue and shelters and have to deal with many hard decisions. People might be able suggest alternative solutions to certain problems. There certainly are no black and white answers.

Say you have all your foster homes full, your shelter is full and you have a young pregnant cat come in to your care......what do you do? It is fine to say I morally don't believe in e-spays....but do you have to have an alternative? Do you allow this cat to have the kittens in a make shift cage you have squeezed into your already over crowded space......Now you have a litter of kittens.....if there are no homes you will have to find more cages to put these babies in as they grow and you will have to watch these babies grow into adults in a small cage.

As a shelter you have a few options....
1.Only take as many as your shelter will hold...and close your doors as soon as you are full………..but then people drop them of at your gate, leave them in boxes on the doorstep......what do you do?
2. Euthanize any overflow………most of the ones coming in are young and beautiful kittens or adolescents. it is hard to kill babies just beginning their lives.
3. Go through the shelter and make room for the young and more adoptable but euthanizing the ones that are not as place able, They are shy, aggressive, old…etc. It is very difficult to hold an old man and tell him he isn't young or pretty enough so you are going to kill him.

As you can see it is very easy to say My vet morally would never do an e-spay but then what would she have us do with all those babies?….Will she take them home herself and fill up her home to beyond capacity…and then what.??

No rules are set in stone…….if you do find a foster home for the above mentioned cat you dance and clap your hands for joy and thank god you found away out of doing something you didn’t want to do. But soon your luck will run out and you will again be faced with the same situation again….

It is fine for people to say morally they won’t do something but someone has to make those hard decisions……
Do you not do an e-spay and now have a litter of babies looking for homes? Taking away from the older kittens or adults that have been sitting and waiting for so long…..
Do you euthanize newborns that are blind and deaf or do you let them grow up and live for years in a small cage?
Do you euthanize older animals with problems to make room for the litter that has just been born? Do you hold them in your arms and tell them sorry you are too old or not as cute as the babies that were born last night? Or do you say I could never work at a shelter and make those kinds of decisions. Those people must be heartless.

Trust me we are not. We cry and lose sleep and try and come up with more foster homes and to educate people. We don’t want to make those decisions either……..but what can we do?

I don’t take in rescue rats….because I am at my limit and I know that if you take them in more then likely you will have to keep them because finding homes are impossible. So by not taking them in I know most of those rats end up as snake food…….That is a hard fact to deal with. But what are my options? Take them in and become over run and wore out physically, emotionally and financially?

I would never tell others not to take them in because that is their decision. They know how many they can handle. But every action causes a reaction….it is just not simple as saying I would never do that.

Again this post is not to start any arguments or accuse anyone of doing or not doing certain things. I just wanted to make people think. And if you can come up with alternatives, suggestions, ideas……. great!

We all love animals and do all we can…….

 

[jorats]

My vet may be against e-spays but I certainly am not. So I really can't speak for her in what she thinks should be done in the case of a pregnant kitty come in. If you ask me, I'd say get her spayed asap.
My personal belief, when it comes to my females though, if I had an oops happen I would take upon myself to take care of the female and all the babies, just like the 3 moms and litters that surprised us here.
As for my vet, I totally respect her and her decisions. She's very religious and is entitled to not take a life if it's what she wants.

 

[lilspaz68]

I would e-spay rat escues coming in, but my own girls? Honestly? That would be soo much harder.

I know a shelter that euthanizes kittens but doesn't e-spay or euthanize young pregnant moms and lets the babies be born. I understand euthanizing animals not as likely to be adopted, but letting new litters be born? Nope that I do not get.

I hate any loss but since some of us abuse/neglect the animals we have domesticated we have to think of the big picture as painful as that may be. :sad3:

 

[jorats]

My personal belief, when it comes to my females though, if I had an oops happen I would take upon myself to take care of the female and all the babies, just like the 3 moms and litters that surprised us here.

Mmm, this got me thinking... I don't really have a choice since my vet won't do it. But if a rescue came in pregnant and my vet did do espays, I think I would do it. But if say I had an unspayed girl get with an unaltered male, I would suffer the consequences and keep the babies. ...I think.

 

[Dahlas]

Jo...I wasn't insulting your vet...not in anyway. I am just thinking. It is a hard time at the shelter right now.....so many animals, so much stress and that post about the e-spay just made me want to throw this out there....

What if you were at your capacity....say 100 rats....and 8 females came in pregnant? I know people can say well I wouldn't think of that until it happens but that is the thing for some of us. It is happening and we have to think of it...... There is an over of abundance of all animals. Dogs, cats, rats, horses, bunnies..... Start up a rescue for anyone of those animals and you will soon be faced with hard questions.....

 

[jorats]

It's really hard to put yourself in that scenario because usually, our hearts over rule our logic. Logically, I'd say, sorry, no more room at the inn. But when actually living it, I'm sure I would take them in and if I had a vet that did e-spay, I'd get them done.
When my parents took in Daizy and April, they didn't know they were pregnant. A few days later, drowning in babies, we kept saying, if I would have known they were pregnant, we wouldn't have said yes. But then, we stop ourselves and think, but the babies would have been born in that awful place and probably never separated... so of course, even knowing we had too many, we still would have taking in the pregnant moms.

 

[SQ]

It is extremely difficult to make these kinds of decisions when you are in the middle of it
and are aware of the consequences.

Many of us have struggled with these kinds of decisions at least once.

When one of the boys got on top of Gracie's cage earlier this year, I had her spayed the next day .... just in case, although she didn't appear to be in heat and pregnancy would have been virtually impossible. I had planned on getting her spayed and that was just the scare I needed to do it asap.

When I recently brought young Betsie and her brother, little Dude, home after the two had been living together in a hamster cage, it was extremely unlikely that she was not pregnant. I was relieved that she was probably too young to be spayed by the vets around here (I didn't bother taking her in). Although I had around 50 rats, way past my limit, I would not have been able to have an e-spay done. Fortunately we beat the odds and she was not pregnant.

Personally, I would rather have animals pts then have an e-spay done. When my rats are pts it is done very, very humanely. I can't say the same for what unborn babies go through when they are killed.

With respect to terminating a late stage pregnancy, it would be dangerous for the mom and the babies would not be much different from those who have been already born. They might also be viable.

The Fredericton SPCA was overrun with cats last year - probably still is ...
They had cats in crates piled everywhere including the hallways.
I am glad that I don't have to face those kinds of decisions. It is heartbreaking, but I believe that it would be much kinder to have the cats humanely euthanized once they had had a chance at being adopted, then to have them live under those conditions.

This is a very difficult issue for people involved in rescue.
It seems that we are always cleaning up messes created by other people.
And of course, it is the animals that suffer.
We can only do the best we can, and try to minimize the suffering.

 

[Dahlas]

I know no one really has any answers it just got me thinking. I was crying pretty hard writing the first post because most days that is the decisions I am faced with. None of the answers suit us.....We are trying to educate but some people just don't care....
What we do right now is treat ever case as the only one, deal with that one in the best way we can, pray we have made the right decision and go on.....

 

[jorats]

When you are a shelter or a rescue, I really don't believe there's a wrong decision. You do what you have to do. And be grateful for the happy endings and learn from the bad ones.
There was a lady on another Canadian forum, she was a true animal lover, a honest to goodness rescuer and did everything for the better of her pets. She once had a litter euthanized, she couldn't do the e-spay, I think it was too late. So many members were in an uproar over this. But she did what was best for her and the litter and sad as it may be, those babies were better off out of this world rather than suffer god knows what fate that waited them. She could not keep them, they had to be rehomed in an area that was not rat friendly.

 

[Dahlas]

I have a friend who would give her life for her animals.....she has spent her whole life dedicated to them and she had to make the same decision as that lady . She still agonizes over it....

As a small child I was going to change the world, save all the animals, train all the nasty dogs and ,you know, make the world one big loving family....Well here I am, 40 years old. I work at a shelter and I sometimes have to sentence to death the very animals that I love. (Crying again)
I could quit and refuse to take another life...... but that won't make the problems go away....it will just mean that the animals I might have been able to help won't get help....and maybe they will die too.
Yeah it has been a bad week and I just need to get this off my chest and maybe my fellow animal lovers will have some solutions....

As animal lovers we need to not be so quick to judge on another.....and maybe not be so hard on ourselves...that is a hard one.

 

[jorats]

You've got a hard job to do Dahlas, I don't think I could do it.
But... to be honest, I don't think death is such a bad sentence. I believe there's something more out there, no more pain and suffering, no more loneliness... and if that's where the animals are going too, they will be just fine.

 

[Dahlas]

(Really crying now)........Thanks Jo......I make sure they hear someone tell them they were very loved and that they were a good baby.

 

[jorats]

:hugs:

 

[Fidget]

I think it's better to be born into heaven than into a world that doesn't have a place for you.
Better to be unborn but loved anyway than suffer neglect as some born but unwanted do.
Your good heart will tell you what is right. :cuddle:

 

[SQ]

:hugs:

 

[LA]

I think it's better to be born into heaven than into a world that doesn't have a place for you.
Better to be unborn but loved anyway than suffer neglect as some born but unwanted do.
Your good heart will tell you what is right. :cuddle:

You know I had to wait a bit to answer, because I honestly didn't know what my answer was going to be. And not to start anything, but I believe in prochoice in regards to abortion. How can I tell another what to do. I am not in their position, I don't know the risks of their life, I don't feel capable of telling anyone what to do. We can give suggestions. We can offer help but we cannot tell people what to do. It's what's in their heart. Fidget, I think what you say is very true.

Dahlas I couldn't not do what you do. :hugs:

 

[mamarat]

I think it's better to be born into heaven than into a world that doesn't have a place for you.
Better to be unborn but loved anyway than suffer neglect as some born but unwanted do.
Your good heart will tell you what is right. :cuddle:

I totally agree with that. :hugs:

 

[Melissa's ZOO]

I have to agree that death is not the worst thing out there and if an e-spay prevents those few souls from fates worse than death, then that is in my eyes the greatest gift I can give.

I am pro-choice. But I think that if a fetus is far enough along it would survive outside the womb then I would have to say no.

 

[twitch]

its certainly a hard choice. years ago i would have let the animal have the babies then try to find great homes for them. this was before i knew about espays and a lot of other things in the rat world. and i did that. i had two pet store surprises and though i tried my best for them but i failed on many accounts by them.

now if i had to do it over again, i honestly wouldn't have. there were so many health problems with all the babies and mental problems with more then a few, one resulting in the death of one of the males. even had i not known the issues, if it was a new rat mom, with as crowded and over run as the martimes are with rats now, i think i would espay.

i don't know if i could bring myself to euthanize the babies after they were born though. it seems like a very small step to just euth all the homeless rats then. that doesn't seem like saving anyone to me. but what do you do? we have so many rats in need already. zen was so sick, he couldn't be adopted out and was a huge drain on the finances but i fought with him and i loved him and i doped myself up on gravol and headache meds to manage my allergy symptoms just to be with him during his final days as much as he wanted me to be there. but yes, he took the place of someone else that i could have helped. all the ones i have now are taking the places of others i could be helping. they have had time being loved, should i end their lives short so i can help others and love them for a time and then do it all over again? it feels wrong to do, but logically it would be a solution. i am not afraid of death and i know more then i really should how life can be worse then death. but it still feels wrong. we make a promise to them to be there for as long as they will let us and to help them always but that promise made is also a promise to the others that for the time that the first rat is with us we are not helping them. when you think of the big picture it can get very depressing.

this is where i believe we have to tell ourselves we cannot help them all, we cannot save them all. if we try we will only end up failing everyone. it doesn't make the hurt any less when we have to say no though.

i feel for you dahlas, you are doing a very hard job. but looking at it on a one case at a time basis is the best that you can do. you are helping those that you can and even if they don't quite understand all of it, i believe deep down in the soul they understand that they were cared for, that at least one person cried for them when no one else would and that they are remembered. perhaps in the next life they will be more fortunate but their soul will always carry the knowledge they gained by being in your presence, even if all you could do was make sure they didn't suffer anymore.

:hug:

 

[Dewi]

For me it isn't a question of morals. I personally don't see death as a bad thing - it’s certainly sad, but not bad in itself. I also don't have issues with abortion in humans either, so long as it's done in the first trimester. However my concern is whether the e-spay will cause suffering to the foetus. If the foetus experiences pain after a certain age (which of course it does) , how exactly do they die when the spey occurs. Is it due to a lack of blood supply, how long does it take, what if the vet nicks/cuts a foetus during the surgery etc. All these things that we don't want to think about but are well worth knowing. IMO if someone is accepting of a late e-spay than that same person should be accepting of euthanasing a neonate or even an adult animal, as it is similar. Just because it can't be seen, doesn't mean it can't suffer.

You do have a tough job Dahlas, but the fact that it still affects you and that you care indicates that you are the right person for the job. It's when people stop feeling and caring, that's when they need to do something else. :hugs: