Sweet and Loving Rats

[4theloveofrats]

Hello every one. I am new to this site. I just wanted to get my rattery name out a little more. Here is a little about me and my rattery. I take in surrenders, I do rescue work. I also breed my own rats. My main job is rescue work. I rather take in unwanted pets then make more in this world. So breeding is a hobby and I only breed when I have the room and enought room so I can still take in rescues. You can contact me at [email protected]. Their ages range from 1 year to 1 in a half years. I have plenty of boys who need homes. Male rats are so much more loving and a make good first time pets for kids and adults alike that have never had a rat before. A male rat also lives a little longer then the females do and lower risk for cancer. Male rats also known as Bucks are so much like dogs. They aim to pleese you. They want to be loved on and handeled where your females tend to be more hiper and want to explore. Now on about me. I am a singel mother of 2 that has a love for all animals. Great or small. I forgot to add how much the adoption fee is for the rats. $15.00 for the first rat. $10.00 for each aditional same gender. Sorry about that! ALL RATS that I have available are NOT rattery bred. They are all rescues.

 

[xxchelle]

We do not allow advertisement of planned breeding or ratteries on the forum. I've removed the link to your website.

I'd like to hear more about your rescuing and breeding ethics. While I applaud good breeders, being a breeder and a rescue is a complete conflict of interest. By rescuing, you want to help alleviate the problem of too many rats and not enough homes. By breeding, you're adding rats to the world.

 

[jorats]

Welcome to the Rat Shack. We are a forum dedicated to rat rescue. Kudos to you for helping rats in need.
You will find us having a hard time understanding the breeding part of your hobby. I guess most of us are in areas where homeless rats are in the hundreds and we always feel so helpless because we just simply can't help them all.

 

[SocialRats]

Rebecca is my sister and by being both breeders and rescuers we are able to do 2 things. We are one of the FEW places that look at the whole package when breeding. We look at genetics, not just for colors and markings, but also the genetics of diseases as well, which very few breeders either know how to do or care to do. We build lines, rather than get pedigreed rats because breeders are ppl and ppl do lie about what genetic issues their rats may carry.

Our work is rescue, our hobby is to breed. We breed soy free rats, which is actually a very important part of our work with rescues as well. We are able to reintroduce to our areas rats that have the potential to live, not just 2 or 3 years, but up to 5 years by being soy free.

Rats are our passion and we love then, as a species, but we both have the same goal, to be able to save those we can, but also to be able to introduce healthy rattery bred rats into our areas as well.

Per the rules of the site, Rebecca, nor I, will post rats that we have bred, however, most of the rats either of us has are actually rescues, not rattery bred. We do not breed just to breed, but also as a part of the Social Rats Soy Free Study that we are conducting as well. We are trying to prove that the main issues with rats now a days is not just genetics, but mainly diet. While we do observe rats for genetic abnormalities, breeding only rats we have breeding rights to, but we will only breed a select few of those rats that meet our very high standards for health, temperament and intelligence.

While helping homeless rats is a grand cause, one we love to work on, it is a cause that will always be there and it is only by educating the public on the advantages of keeping their rats soy free, that we can help all of our rats to become soy free and healthy, by using diet in conjunction with good care. By doing what we do, finding that precise balance between breeder and rescuer, we have been able to bring more breeders into helping with rescue as well which is very important. If more breeders would rescue and see what rescues go through in their lifetime, of trying to find homes and seeing the end of life health issues that we, as rescuers, deal with, we might be able to stop more irresponsible breeders from causing more homeless rats.

It is not always easy to get someone to open their homes to rats in need, but by our own example, we have proven that it works and have gotten more breeders to do the same. I realize that some ppl think that it is an ethical dilema to breed and rescue, but if we were looking at just breeding to breed, I could understand that, however, what we are breeding is something that there is very few of.
Rats that are completely soy free.

If you like, I can go into details about the studies we have read, the hours of research that we have done both together and separately, but I do not want to bore you with details. If you want to read about the research done on it, you can read it at http://socialrats.blogspot.com

What we are trying to accomplish with breeding is generations of soy free rats. Sadly, however, we can not accomplish this with just rescue work. So, when we have the room and the time and the needed supplies, we do breed a litter here and there. Our goal is to breed rats that will live up to and possibly beyond the 5 year mark.

Most of the rats listed on Rebecca's site are actually rescues, not rats she has bred herself. So, I would appreciate it if her site could be posted: (removed) so that her name as a rescuer and her site, can be more known. We, both her and I, need to get the names out there, the websites seen, so we can help find homes for these rescues that we take in. It is, in this way, that we can help more rescues find homes. Both of us, Rebecca and I, when we have an adopter who is unsure about which to adopt, we always try to find homes for the rescues first and foremost. Unlike most breeders, we feel that our main responsibility is to the rats we have in rescue, as we brought our rattery bred rats into this world and we will care for them through out their lives, no matter what. We also will accept back any rat we adopt out, whether a rescue or a rattery bred, as we do not feel that any one life is more valueable than the other.

Thank you and have a great day

Tami
Social Rats Adoption and Rescue
(removed)

 

[xxchelle]

Again, we do NOT allow links to ratteries, be it in a post or a signature, even if they do rescue as well as breed. I've removed the links you had in your post, Tami.

 

[jorats]

I am very interested in your studies. I have done plenty of research on diet for rats and this is new to me. If you don't mind maybe start something in the health care section under diet with your research and links.

 

[Rissa]

In one of the blog posts you put "Did have to put some rats down for aggression, but that was hormonal, meaning genetic, not diet. " I would like to know the circumstances around this please?

 

[ema-leigh]

On your website blog you wrote:

''Things have been doing better yet this month. We have a few more litters ready that are raised soy free. We have had very little use for antibiotics this month at all. Dobi got a bad scratch, got a bit infected, but cleared on it's own without the use of antibiotics. Our little Stumpy was on a round of antibiotics for a missing ankle, but cleared up well without getting worse. Have had 2 URIs both cleared without meds. Slight congestion, bit of porphorin when sneezing, cleared within 48 hours of being noticed.

1 abscess found, cleaned it out, used some neosporin plus on it, cleared up without incidence.

Did have to put some rats down for aggression, but that was hormonal, meaning genetic, not diet.

No incidences of cancer found. Currently there are still more than 100 rats here, plenty of babies available. Do still have some older rescues here as well. All available males have been paired up with younger cagemates.

That is about it for the July update. WIll be posting some more research later today''

If your a rescue how can you justify putting down rats because of aggression? Surely a neuter and other options would be tried first?

You also wrote you don't have many litters. But in the July update you have several litters available.

 

[jorats]

You put rats down for aggression? Did you do a neuter first? Neuters with socializing has worked 100% of the time with my rescue rats.

 

[xxchelle]

Me as well... I've never heard of euthanizing a rat due to aggression let alone "some rats" (implying more than just one or two).

Did you try neuters, and give them enough time to get the hormones out of their system?

 

[PitLuvs]

Not to jump on the bandwagon here, but I've delt with a few aggressive rats in my time and never had to have an of them put to sleep. Just recently, our Shai was the most aggressive rat I've encountered (you could not go near his cage without being attacked) and we managed fine. With socialization, he turned out to be the best rat we've owned. I cannot imagine what a neuter would have done for him, but sadly we lost him to cancer before we could neuter. Anyways, as a Rattery, that would be something that would turn me off from buying a pet from you guys (not that I would buy a rat anyways, with millions needing homes).

And also, just because a rat is soy-free and bred from a rattery, this does not mean they could never become homeless. Just saying. And I also see you allow breeding of your offspring and encourage it by selling male/female pairs.... hrrmmmm....

Welcome!

 

[SocialRats]

Ok, I am going to try to address everything, but if I miss anything, just let me know.

As far as links, then how about this one: http://rescues.socialrats.com This is a link to all of the rescues without our network. in 5 different states so far. This is ppl that 90% or more of the animals adopted out are rescues, not ones they bred themselves or strictly rescues.

The July Litters is because, in May, I took in a rescue of , I believe, 6 girls that were all pregnant, in addition to a nursing rescue from one of my rescuers.

The rats I had to put down due to aggression were beyond anything that could have been helped. From the day their eyes open, deslite beinng worked with from the day after birth for an hour a day, every day, would bite. I do not mean nip, bit draw blood. The night that the litter attacked and killed their own mother, after getting bit numerous times up until this point, I decided enough was enough and I could not risk adopting them out. They were WAY too young to have any type of hormonal reduction type of surgeries done and I have NEVER had this happen before and honestly think there was something mentally wrong with the babies. They were barely into their hormones, if at all, but it was the best explaination I could come up with at the time.

As to adding to homeless rats, we always make sure that ALL adopters know that, no matter the circumstances, that will will ALWAYS accept back any rat we have adopted out. If we do not have room, we will make room for them. This is in the adoption contract that our adopters must sign as well.

I do not "encourage" breeding, as you put it, but I would rather someone were honest with me about it so I can make sure that they are working with lines that I know are healthy and without genetic health issues, rather than them lie to me about it, which many, many ppl have done with other ratteries AND rescues and breed unhealthy or aggressive rats.

Everyone who is allowed to adopt a male/female pair is screened first to make sure they know what they are doing when it comes to breeding. That they have done their research, not only on the color and markings with genetics, but also on health issues as well. I check to see how long they have owned rats and I check a few other things as well, when it comes to someone wanting to purchase a breeding pair. Also, I have had ppl who have adopted a male and a female, not for breeding, but because they have male and female colonies in their home and want to add to one or both colonies, which there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I have had adopters who have adopted both males and females, but had no intentions of breeding. I have fosters who I work with that keep both males and females in their homes, but are not breeders. I know of many rescuers that keep both genders in their home without issue as well. So, do not assume that, just because someone is adopting a male/female pair that they do plan to breed, but I do not necessrily look down on anyone who is willing and able to do it responsibly, who has done their homework and who is willing to care for the babies into adulthood, if they can not find homes for all of the babies.

 

[4theloveofrats]

WOW! All this bickering on here. If I had known this was going to happen I would of never posted here. All I was trying to do was find homes for the rescues that I have that came in and they are just that (RESCUES) NOT RATTERY BRED RATS.... As for the soy free reed the blog and study for your self as we have done. AS FOR THOSE OF YOU THAT TALKED ABOUT NEUTERING RATS. (I AM ALL FOR THAT AS LONG AS THE RAT IS UNDER A YEAR OLD) NOT SAFE FOR A RAT OVER A YEAR OLD TO BE NEUTERED. IF YOU ALL THINK A NEUTER WILL HELP MY BLACK VARIBERK REX THAT I HAVE THAT IS ALMOST 2 YEARS OLD. CONTACT ME VIA E-MAIL AND YOU CAN HAVE HIM. HE HAS NOT ONLY KILLED ABOUT 5 RATS BUT HE HAS SKINNED 2 ALIVE. NEEDLESS TO SAY HE GOES AFTER HUMANS AS WELL. SO IF SOMEONE WANTS TO HAVE HIM NEUTERED THEN COME AND GET HIM!!!!!!!!

 

[xxchelle]

I would definitely take your boy if I was in the area or if a train could be arranged. I've neutered rats over a year with GREAT success, and I know others have as well. It really does help, as long as the rat is healthy enough to go through surgery, I don't think there's a set age to decide a neuter won't work.

If the rat has a chronic URI or something that would affect their ability to go through surgery/anesthetic, the of course I wouldn't put them through an elective surgery. But as long as the rat is healthy enough, I don't see an issue.

What are your intro procedures/steps?

Edit: I don't think anyone was bickering. When you run a rattery or rescue, you have to be prepared to answer questions people may have. We were simply bringing up some questions that some of us had. Personally, as a rescue owner, I would be happy to answer any questions anyone asked me, without getting defensive.

 

[lizmo1221]

So just to understand, which is it? The rats are too old to be neutered, like Rebecca said, or to young to be neutered, like SocialRats said?

I also find it very hard that a litter would overpower and kill their mother, or that they could even skin a rat alive. If so, how could you let that happen if you know it had killed before? It is just irresponsible to allow a rat to kill five and "skin" two more. He should have been separated and neutered after the first attack.

 

[4theloveofrats]

Honestly I did not know that it was this rat that was doing it. When you have a Ferret Nation with 15 boys in it ages rangeing from 5 Months all the way to 2 years. I never saw him honestly kill the 5 rats. I did see him skin the one rat. I would of taken him out IF I had know it was him. I did not tell I saw him. I got the rat in as a rescue. He was housed with other males. He never had prblems with my other males. He had been in with those males for almost 6 months. That is when the problems started. My vet here will NOT neuter any rat over the age of a year old. I my self about 10 years ago had a litter kill their mother. Once again a rescue. No back ground known. How do I introdue my males? I will tell you. I out them on my bed and let them play. They play for an hour or so. Then I clean the cage I am going to put the new boy in. Once it is clean I put new boy in the cage let him roam around a bit. A good hour or so. Then I take him out and put the other boys back. Leave them in their for an hour or so. Then I take them all out play with them all. Put them all in the cage together. I have NEVER had any introduction issues but once. I seperated the two so no blood was drawn. I would start on the bed with them put one in the cage take the other out. So on and so on. The one would not get along tell I put vanila extract on both of them. They are room mates to this day... The best of frieds. I am open to questions. To honestly answer everyone here. The only rats that have up for adoption are all rescues. I did not breed them. They came to me needing homes. To be honest. I am only doing rescue work and sanctuary. I have more older rats, 1 disabled rat, and a few that have to stay on meds due to their age and how they were cared for. I understand the squall between rescue and breeding. I know that just because a rat is bred and it gets a home that it does not mean that it is in its permanent home. Why bring more animals into this world when their are plenty out their that need homes. Very good point. I have to say I would not breed any more then 3 litters a year. Only what is in demand. I would put my rescue work first as I have done and that is what I am doing. I have 5 gerbils and idk yet how many rats that are comeing in with 1 mouse and such. That is where my work is. Some of the things that have been said between some of us sounds to me like bickering. I am not talking about the questions. "Did you know when you go to a reptile show and pick out all the cute little ratties so they are not getting eaten by snakes. That you are not saveing a life but putting more in place of the lives that you spared from a snake." I had to share that quote... I want all of you to know that my rex rat is NOT going to be put down. He will be cared for with handeling gloves made for rapters. He will still get free time. Byw him self. How many of you here do rescue work? I am a PETA volunteer. IF you would like to know more about me...

 

[xxchelle]

Honestly I did not know that it was this rat that was doing it. When you have a Ferret Nation with 15 boys in it ages rangeing from 5 Months all the way to 2 years. I never saw him honestly kill the 5 rats. I did see him skin the one rat. I would of taken him out IF I had know it was him. I did not tell I saw him. I got the rat in as a rescue. He was housed with other males. He never had prblems with my other males. He had been in with those males for almost 6 months. That is when the problems started. My vet here will NOT neuter any rat over the age of a year old. I my self about 10 years ago had a litter kill their mother. Once again a rescue. No back ground known. How do I introdue my males? I will tell you. I out them on my bed and let them play. They play for an hour or so. Then I clean the cage I am going to put the new boy in. Once it is clean I put new boy in the cage let him roam around a bit. A good hour or so. Then I take him out and put the other boys back. Leave them in their for an hour or so. Then I take them all out play with them all. Put them all in the cage together. I have NEVER had any introduction issues but once. I seperated the two so no blood was drawn. I would start on the bed with them put one in the cage take the other out. So on and so on. The one would not get along tell I put vanila extract on both of them. They are room mates to this day... The best of frieds. I am open to questions. To honestly answer everyone here. The only rats that have up for adoption are all rescues. I did not breed them. They came to me needing homes. To be honest. I am only doing rescue work and sanctuary. I have more older rats, 1 disabled rat, and a few that have to stay on meds due to their age and how they were cared for. I understand the squall between rescue and breeding. I know that just because a rat is bred and it gets a home that it does not mean that it is in its permanent home. Why bring more animals into this world when their are plenty out their that need homes. Very good point. I have to say I would not breed any more then 3 litters a year. Only what is in demand. I would put my rescue work first as I have done and that is what I am doing. I have 5 gerbils and idk yet how many rats that are comeing in with 1 mouse and such. That is where my work is. Some of the things that have been said between some of us sounds to me like bickering. I am not talking about the questions. "Did you know when you go to a reptile show and pick out all the cute little ratties so they are not getting eaten by snakes. That you are not saveing a life but putting more in place of the lives that you spared from a snake." I had to share that quote... I want all of you to know that my rex rat is NOT going to be put down. He will be cared for with handeling gloves made for rapters. He will still get free time. Byw him self. How many of you here do rescue work? I am a PETA volunteer. IF you would like to know more about me...

I'd have to say almost everyone here does rescue work in some way or another. Whether it's volunteering for the SPCA or Humane Society, or helping out independent rescues.

Personally, I run a rat rescue for southern Ontario. To date we've adopted out nearly 100 rats, and I opened less than a year ago. I'm VERY happy with my success! I can name at least half a dozen members on this forum that have directly came to my rescue and volunteered (helped me clean cages, socialize rats, etc.), probably about another dozen or so that have adopted from me (which in my opinion is doing rescue work!), another two dozen or more who have financially helped me, and COUNTLESS others who have (most importantly!) emotionally supported me. All these people I consider to be "part of the rescue" as they've seen me through hard times. So all of these people have done "rescue work" for me alone, that doesn't count any of the other members who run other rat rescues themselves (I can name another half-dozen members off the top of my head who also run their own rat rescues)! Then there are hammock makers who put part of the proceeds towards rescues, or even donate hammock bundles to rescues, and people who spread the word about rescuing in general. Man, that's a lot of rescue-loving people.

The issue with breeding and rescuing is that you're producing rats, that's the bottom line. Even if it was only ONE litter per year, that's another dozen (or so) rescue rats that cannot go to those homes because their "spot" in that forever home was just filled with a breeder rat. Personally, every day I fight against the heartache of hundreds of rats being euthanized daily, THOUSANDS of rats in awful situations that I just CAN'T help them all, and it's a horrible feeling to sit back and do nothing because I have no space/money/time/whatever to take in more rats, I can't imagine breeding, like I said, even ONE litter per year. That would be another 12 rats I could no longer rescue, another 12 rats that would waste away in a shelter, 12 rats that would die from neglect, 12 rats that would be euthanized due to an overcrowded shelter, that I couldn't take in because I just bred a litter. Does that make sense? (I feel like that was one big run on sentence, haha!)

Now, as for your boys... 15 in a double FN is VERY crowded in my opinion. A double FN can hold MAX 12 rats, but for boys I like to subtract two from the cage calculator numbers, so I'd say 10 max, 12 is pushing it, and 15 is way too crowded. This could be the root of the issues. Also, if I understood you correctly, you intro rats then have them in the cage together in the same day? Your intro process needs to be slowed down quite a bit. Many intros take WEEKS to do properly, especially male intros (though some girls can be nasty too!). You have to do at least a week of neutral-ground play times before even attempting non-neutral ground. There is a great reference thread on introductions, I suggest you give it a read through, as too-quick intros can also lead to territorial issues and aggression: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=406

 

[victoria]

WOW! All this bickering on here. If I had known this was going to happen I would of never posted here. All I was trying to do was find homes for the rescues that I have that came in and they are just that (RESCUES) NOT RATTERY BRED RATS.... As for the soy free reed the blog and study for your self as we have done. AS FOR THOSE OF YOU THAT TALKED ABOUT NEUTERING RATS. (I AM ALL FOR THAT AS LONG AS THE RAT IS UNDER A YEAR OLD) NOT SAFE FOR A RAT OVER A YEAR OLD TO BE NEUTERED. IF YOU ALL THINK A NEUTER WILL HELP MY BLACK VARIBERK REX THAT I HAVE THAT IS ALMOST 2 YEARS OLD. CONTACT ME VIA E-MAIL AND YOU CAN HAVE HIM. HE HAS NOT ONLY KILLED ABOUT 5 RATS BUT HE HAS SKINNED 2 ALIVE. NEEDLESS TO SAY HE GOES AFTER HUMANS AS WELL. SO IF SOMEONE WANTS TO HAVE HIM NEUTERED THEN COME AND GET HIM!!!!!!!!

IF a train can be arranged to Montreal, Quebec, I will take the aggressive male rat. Even if he is not healthy enough for surgery, he may be a candidate for chemical castration, which my vet can do. I have a large cage he can live in, and I will find the money for his vet bills even if it means getting rid of cable and my cell phone. I am so sick to my stomach right now trying to figure out how an aggressive rat was allowed to kill one rat, let alone five, but it doesn't matter. If you care about his well-being, find a way to get him to me or Chelle in Guelph, Ontario.

 

[4theloveofrats]

I DID NOT KNOW THIS RAT WAS THE RAT THAT DID WHAT HE DID TO THE OTHER RATS.

DOES EVERYTHING HAVE TO BE EXPLAINED IN COMPLEET DETAIL????

I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT A DOUBLE STACK FERRET NATION.

THE FERRET NATION IS OVER 7 FEET TALL. IT IS 3 STORIES!

IT IS OVER 3 FEET WIDE. SO TELL ME HOW THAT IS TOO CROWDED?

I DO NOT THROW ALL MY MALES INTO A CAGE TOGETHER OVER NIGHT!

CHEMICAL NEUTER... THAT IS AS BAD AS A HEART STICK!!! I SURE HOPE THE ANIMAL IS
UNDER AN ANTISTETIC FOR THAT!

I AM THREW WITH THIS BULL ON A STUPID ERROR ON MY PART OVER A MALE KILLING
MORE THEN ONE RAT. I DO NOT LIKE IT ANY MORE THEN YOU DO...

I WILL FURTHER MORE NOT POST HERE. SINCE I CAN NOT GET THREW TO SOME.
IT SEEMS THAT I HAVE TO GO INTO 100% DETAIL ABOUT EVERYTHING.
SORRY NOT WRITTING A BOOK.

GODDESS BLESS ALL OF YOU AND THE RATTIES IN THIS WORLD AND TO ALL OF THOSE
WHO ARE CLOSED MINDED TO WHAT THEY CAN NOT SEE IN FRONT OF THEM.

BEFORE I CLOSE... HOW DO YOU ALL FEE ABOUT A 16 YEAR OLD BREEDING AND ADOPTING OUT RATS????

 

[xxchelle]

I'm not sure why you're yelling at me... I don't think I've been anything but nice to you.

I simply said that 15 in an FN is crowded, I didn't know you had a triple level and that's great, definitely not overcrowded.

As for intros, I was going by what you said:

How do I introdue my males? I will tell you. I out them on my bed and let them play. They play for an hour or so. Then I clean the cage I am going to put the new boy in. Once it is clean I put new boy in the cage let him roam around a bit. A good hour or so. Then I take him out and put the other boys back. Leave them in their for an hour or so. Then I take them all out play with them all. Put them all in the cage together.

Which, from what you wrote, is done in the same day (they play for an hour, then clean the cage, and put the new boy in for an hour, then take him out and let them play again for an hour, then put them all in together). I was offering up a suggestion that you slow intros down, along with a reference link to read.

Chemical castration is becoming more and more popular and is basically the equivalent to a human female taking birth control. (Just like the pill, the patch, the ring, etc.)

Why are you asking about a 16 year old breeding/adopting out?