Surgery on our elderly babies

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RattusNorvegicus

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Jun 9, 2011
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I was wondering if anyone had experience they could share with putting old ratties with lung scarring (the heavy costal breathing) through surgery. What makes the anesthesia so much more dangerous when a rat has bad breathing?

Gloom is 28 months with heavy costal breathing and she has two mammary tumors. One below her arm that is growing slowly (for now...they always speed up it seems) and one beside her rectum that I really need to schedule a removal for. I've been so nervous, but during Gloom's exam my vet said it should be an easy removal. It has grown a bit since then, and maybe attached a bit more, so I can't keep putting it off. After surgery I plan to put her on bromo. Gloom is also overweight, which makes things even more risky.

And Emily is over 30 months, heavy breathing, two LARGE mammary tumors that I did decide not to remove, but recently have been changing my mind. Ping-pong ball sized one below her arm, and one more than double that size inguinally. The skin on her inguinal tumor is starting to thin, and she's had a hard time walking. She's slowing down...and if I don't attempt removal, she has a month at most. They're growing so fast...she also has a pea sized one on her other side under her arm, but if I do have the two large ones removed, I'd leave that and put her on bromo. I understand inguinal tumors can be tricky to remove....this whole situation just sucks.

Anyway, any experience would be MUCH appreciated. I know with Emily this will probably end up as a lost attempt since this is a lose lose situation most likely. :cry: I was thinking of attempting removal...and if she doesn't do well under anesthesia my vet would wake her up and we could let her live out the time she has left and pts when she is too uncomfortable. I just can't stand not doing anything about this...and if Emily could live..at least 2 months without those tumors happily, I would be content.

I apologize if this is very messy. I need to go to sleep. But if anyone has any miraculous recovery stories..I would love to read them. I would also love to see pictures.
 
I'm not preaching to you here, because I know you already know this, but this is for someone new to rats who may be reading my response.
This is why we say to spay rats while young. It is much easier to put a young healthy rat under than an old sick rat.
Now, this is for the poster: With older rats, you risk progressing a pituitary tumour, it also taxes the body a lot more at an old age. Now... with that said, I've always had tumours removed no matter the age, the only difference is how clear are the lungs. If they sound really bad, I won't do it but if the vet is comfortable and confident, then I'll get it done.
My Vincent had started a tumour at a young age by his back legs. His lungs were shot. He was on Baytril, zithromax, combos no combos for well over a year. I figured he would die before the tumour got to a point where it was necessary to put to sleep. Nope, that plan fell through. All of a sudden, at the age of 37 months, Vincent's lungs cleared a little. So I took the chance and got him done. It was the greatest feeling in the world to see Vincent without that huge tumour. He died 2 months later of natural causes. Yes, you might say it was only two months but to a rat, that's like 2 years.
 
Thank you Jo. 2 months really IS a long time, and I would be happy with just that. I had Gremlin's mammary tumor removed at 24 months because she is really healthy, and it's only been 3-4 months that's she's been without it and it feels like forever. I'm so glad I had it removed.

With it progressing a PT, if it responds to bromo, I won't care. I won't care because I just want a little more time and if that means basically trading these tumors for a PT, I would do it. If the symptoms can be controlled for awhile of course. I should be getting bromo within a couple weeks and if Emily makes it through surgery I am putting her on it.

My vet seems confident in Glooms, and if they change their mind at all during surgery they would abort it which I really take comfort in. With your Vincent, did he have the very heavy breathing, or just noisy lungs? Emily gets out of breath now easily, and stops with her chest jerking to catch her breath. But again, it's getting to the point that I need to make a decision before removal is too late, though it probably is, but.
 
This is why I spay my girls. In the end it can cost more than doing the spay early.

I am torn with surgery on elderly girls. I am picking up an older girl tomorrow with 2 tumors. I prefer to remove them but I am not sure if i will of this one. I will know tomorrow. I hate tumors and will avoid them if i can just for this fact. I have had surgeries done on 17 month olds and I am not comfortable with that even. If they are healthy then I would try though. I know I will if this girl is healthy enough.
 
Years ago I did have a tumor removed from an older girl. I'd have to look up the records to see exactly what her age was, but she was approaching 2 years. She was in good health and good condition, and made through the surgery just fine. That night after the surgery she was trying to run around like normal, I had to keep her in a tiny little cage a couple days for fear she'd hurt herself! But she was in good health. If the rat has issues breathing, whether it be scarring, infection, or whatever, I would be very hesitant to put that rat through surgery.
 
I won't allow myself to rescue any females until I have the money to have them spayed. I got my girlies unprepared.

What is it about the scarring that makes surgery so dangerous?
 
My understanding is the scarring makes it harder for their lungs to properly utilize oxygen. That is vitally important during surgery, because that's what helps keep them alive, but also because they need to be able to absorb every bit of oxygen they can when gaseous anesthesia is used. In addition... if their lungs are functioning to the fullest extent, the anesthesia may not work as well either.
 
My girl mally had horrible lung. I mean bad made noise her whole life. Had Pneumonia twice. She made it through a spay and a few months later a mammary tumor surgery. In the end the lungs got the best of her but she did make it through the surgeries.
 
My two year old wasn't in great health, but she survived her one and only surgery just fine. But the bad lungs make it difficult. It really depends on your judgement. We knew Pinky was old and not going to live much longer and we thought we might as well take a chance and not make her have to live with the ping pong ball sized tumor she had developed. She was already blind and somewhat confused and the tumor made it too hard for her to get around to justify us leaving it. But if you think they're reasonably comfortable and would rather try to take care of them like this than take the risk of losing them, then you shouldn't do it. It comes down to their current level of discomfort with the tumors, and your willingness to take that risk.
 
It depends on their condition, the situation and your vet. If they're at the point where they don't have much time left without surgery and they may survive the surgery I would be tempted to try. It would suck if they passed but at least you tried. That's my approach to it anyway, I hate losing them and thinking there was something more I could have tried.
 
Personally I try to stay away from doing surgeries on older rats because it is risky if they have bad lungs and removign mammary tumors can progress a pituitary tumour. I had a girl who was 24 months develop a mammary tumor, and I had it removed and it pushed towards making her have a pituitary tumour. Since then I havn't removed mammary tumors from my girls. I just had a girl PTS a month ago, she was 34 months old and had a mammart tumor for 15 months. The tumor did not end her life, she ended up having a storke, but she did live a happy, long life with the mammary tumor, and even after 15 months, it still was not causing her any issues.

I look at it as letting them enjoy their old life. If I was 80 I wouldnt want surgery. But everyone ahs their own opinion =)
 
Thank you for your replies... Here is a picture I just took of her tumors..
Emilystumors3-9-13_zpsddab6df2.jpg

Her inguinal one might be slightly larger than it looks in this photo.

victoria that's exactly how I feel too.

My judgement isn't of much use here...I don't really know when enough is enough and second guess myself all the time. I've had 3 rats operated on so far, all were decently healthy so this would be new to me. Perhaps I should just go for it. Her breathing has seemed a little worse, so hopefully in the time it takes me to get the money it will clear up a bit. Maybe I will add Zithro to her B/d.

Question though. I want to raise her Baytril and doxy doses, and now her weight is 555g. I would still go by her weight correct? Even though the tumors are a lot of it?
b089e84e-e292-4f32-9f18-e0831a584623_zps150d8c57.jpg


I'm sorry the photos are so large by the way. Still adjusting to the new PB.
 
Oh, wow. At that size I think it might be worth a shot. I'm not sure how comfortable she could be with those. It might be worth it for a shot at giving her some comfort.
 
For dosing, you go according to the weight even if a lot of it is tumours. You reduce it post op accordingly.

I know you commented once in another thread you tried 3 abs once and had poor results in regards to gut flora. I have given Baytril, Doxy and Zithro (I used vet dosage guidelines and NOT Debbie D's) to a few really chronic rats and haven't had issues. It really helped them a lot. Amoxicillin, Clavamox and Chlorpalm tend to be more harmful to healthy bacteria levels and cause issues even if not combined with other drugs.

I really only use the combo as a last resort and it has extended the life of two of my rats by months I would guess.
 
Yeah, I did try Baytril, doxy and Clav on one of my girls..which was hell trying to regulate the flora again. I did just take Eddy off of Zithro, she was on Baytril, doxy and Zithro with no issues. For now I will see how Emily does on higher doses of Baytril and doxy.

Thank you again for the replies everyone. Me and Emily really need the encouragement.
 

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