So frustrated with this dog....{RANT}

[fenshae]

*sigh*
Ok. I posted a little bit ago looking for housetraining help for my chihuahua Totoro and got some EXCELLENT advice...but I just really have to rant right now because this dog is driving me insane.

I'm having a hard time loving this dog.

That's a terrible thing to say and I don't really mean it, I don't think....I think I'm just grumpy because I got woken up at 6:30 this morning by the maintenance crew doing roof repairs (ugh) and turning off our AC (UGH), and the ONLY PAIR of clean work pants I had were peed on by the dog, who for some reason was NOT in his kennel like he was supposed to be.

And the housebreaking thing isn't the worst part, really. I can deal with that, I can work through it. I can even deal with the fact that he submissive pees all over me every time I handle him, I guess. I can deal with the fact that he has no idea how to walk on a leash.

The hard part is that he doesn't do ANYTHING ELSE. He screams and hides whenever you try and pick him up, he runs away and cowers when you call him (and pees all over himself in the meantime). He has no interest in toys, or playing, or interacting in any way with any body. He just lazes around the house, avoids everybody, and pees and poops on everything.

He's been to the vet, there's NOTHING wrong with him physically....he's just neurotic. I've had him since MAY and I've done nothing but love him...speak gently to him...give him treats...try and gently encourage him....and he's totally nonresponsive. He's like a pet rock that barks at nothing and pees in the house.

*sigh* I don't REALLY hate him...I know rationally that it's not his fault, that I need to be patient, etc. etc. etc., but...well.... :gaah:

 

[smalltowngirl]

How old is he?
Where did he come from?
How much do you know about his previous life before you?

 

[Riana]

I want to point you to a forum that did wonders for me when I was struggling with some issues with my Dachshund. Go to http://familydog.yuku.com, and it's a forum that is owned by Sarah Wilson, a wonderful woman who wrote the most invaluable book to me, My Smart Puppy http://www.amazon.ca/dp/044657886X/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20, among other books with Brian Kilcommons. And on their website they have a ton of articles that you can read through, and they have a bunch on housetraining, and a good one on submissive urinating, too. http://mysmartpuppy.com/library.html

Anyway, join the forum, because there are several professional dog trainers, a vet, and many many people who have years of experience and oodles of advice to give to you! You won't be disappointed!

And just so you know, sending huge vibes to you, because I understand your frustration. :hugs:

 

[fenshae]

How old is he?
Where did he come from?
How much do you know about his previous life before you?

He's about 5 years, as near as the shelter was aware. I got him from our no-kill shelter, where he had been surrendered directly by his previous owners, an elderly couple who had to go into assisted living and couldn't care for him anymore. The shelter didn't know much about him because he had only been there for a few days when I got him, so everything we know with him is speculation pretty much.

Judging from his actions, I can make a few fair guesses on what his life was like. I'm guessing he had a house with a yard, because he had no idea how to walk on a leash and was terrified of it. I'm also guessing he may have been paper trained previously; I say this because:
1.) if there is ANYTHING on the floor that resembles newspaper, he'll use that for his potty
2.) 90% of the time, he'll only go on tile/linoleum, not carpet
3.) he has no idea how to ask to go outside.
I'm half tempted to just invest in some puppy pads or litterbox train him as I suspicion sometimes it might be easier.
He is TERRIFIED of children. He doesn't like strangers in general, but he is absolutely terrified of children, which is doubly difficult because my apartment complex is full of kids who like to run up to him and try to pet him even though I tell them repeatedly NOT to touch him.

And Riana -- THANK YOU for the link, I will go check that out immediately!

 

[Moon]

He is TERRIFIED of children. He doesn't like strangers in general, but he is absolutely terrified of children, which is doubly difficult because my apartment complex is full of kids who like to run up to him and try to pet him even though I tell them repeatedly NOT to touch him.

Ugh, so frustrating. Never mind teaching your dog, but parents teaching their kids just a bit of animal safety. :doh:

I am going to :stickpoke: you again to do some class type training with him, with a trainer who has a good reputation with high anxiety dogs. It can help SO MUCH.

 

[Vanessa]

This sounds to me like his training is not something that you can do yourself. Take Moon's advice and take him to a professional who makes a living training difficult habits out of dogs.
You deserve it and most importantly the dog deserves it. It sounds to me as if he is as miserable as you are.
Training should never be an option with dogs, it is a necessity.

 

[dogsnbears]

not sure if this is a good idea or not (so let me know what you think)

this is if he likes other dogs, maybe borrow another dog (not to big) so he can see how to act like a dog? it might or might not help with him going potty outside but maybe he will see that he doesn't have to be so scared around the house.

and maybe he was paper trained in the past? i would put some out to see. maybe paper train him then switch to outside. (eventually putting the paper outside etc.)

 

[Sorraia]

One thing comes to mind - he might be trying to tell you he needs to go out, you just aren't reading him well.

Not every dog is very obvious about it. My dog is EXTREMELY subtle when she needs to go out. She tells me or anyone else who is in the house when she needs out. The problem is, MOST people don't know how to read her. I routinely drop her off at my dad's house while I'm working (if I can't take her with me on that day), and have been doing this for about a year since I got her. He STILL cannot tell when she needs out, so pretty much has to let her out every couple of hours to make sure. She will hold it as long as she can, but if you ignore her signals she will potty in the house.

Maybe look for other signals he might be giving you? Even if it seems totally off the wall, try letting him out and see if it helps. Maybe give him a "command" to? Like start asking "Do you need OUT?" then take him out. Once you are outside, tell him to "Do your thing" (or whatever you want to call it), then reward when he does. If he doesn't, take him back in and try again later.

You may have already gotten this advice (didn't see your other thread), but if not, maybe it will help. My dog doesn't go to the door when she needs out, she doesn't bark, doesn't whimper, none of that. She comes and looks at you, as if she wanted attention. If you just give her attention and don't take her out, she becomes more persistent, starts leaning on you. If you give her attention and still don't take her out, she'll start putting her paws on you, and eventually jump up on you. If any time during this act you ask "Do you need OUT?" she'll perk her ears, wag her tail, and start panting. That's her way of saying "yes" but she will NOT ever go to the door until you get up and walk to the door. Take her out and the first thing she does is squat, because that's what she wanted all along, not attention. But she's very "blank" and subtle. No major facial expressions unless you really know her or are very very perceptive to extremely subtle changes in behavior/body.

 

[Fidget]

You need a dog-shrink, eh?
If you can afford a dog-shrink great.
In your position I'd be really worried about spending money I don't have on a flake or a freak. There are good ones, but I guess you have to do homework to find out who is or is not.
Personally I'd just suggest that any time the dog pees on you you immediately pick him up and put him in the carrier without saying a word to him or looking at him or showing any relationship so he can know that deprives him of company & freedom & pack-standing. 5 minutes, no acknowledgement of him.....

 

[littledevils]

What have you done so far regarding house training?

He might be 5 years old but you have to go way way back and start from scratch. He is not going to tell you if he never learned that that's what he's supposed to do.

I don't believe in keeping dogs in crates for extended period of times however it can be an extremely useful tool in some cases incl. (or esp.) for housebreaking. Of course if your dog is a puppy mill dog then it's harder as they learned that it's acceptable to soil their den but it's definitely something I would try. Most dogs will not soil their own dens.

Then take him outside every 2 hours, give him the command "go pee" or "go and do your business", "go poo" whatever you want to use. If he goes praise him as if he just did the best thing ever, give him a treat, if not he goes back into the crate.

While in the house, have him tethered to you with his leash. That way he can't go and sneak away but you're right there and can catch him in the act and tell him no... No hitting, no pushing his nose into it! Just "no" (one of my foster dogs was given up because he marked in his previous home... I tethered him to me, he went to do it the first time and I gave him hell... he never tried it again after that... it was that simple!).

I'm all for using positive reinforcement but some dogs just need to be told off, there's nothing cruel about it.

Anyway, after a while he will learn and see what you want of him... to go outside... and most dogs will then asked to be let out. Also make sure to set him up for success! Take him out frequently and give him a chance to do it right.

And like Sorraia mentioned, every dog has a different signal to be let out. My dog Cha used to do a weird butt wiggle as a puppy that only hubby and I would catch..... Now he can hold his stuff all day long and considering we usually take him out 4-6 times a day for walks/runs he doens't ask to go out anymore unless he really has to go in which case he will either go to the door and just stand there.... and if we happen to miss it he'll start whining, it's definitely more obvious now.

You can try the paper training... Personally I don't like it because I really do think dogs should go outside to do their business.... But if nothing else works then so be it.

But main case is literally to treat him just like you would a puppy and start housebreaking 101 at step one... Set him up for success by taking him out frequently. If you like most people have to work or go to school, ask somebody to take him out. I look after a friends puppy currently several days a week when she works long hours just so we can set her up for success... She hasn't had a single accident at my house or her house but we do take her out every 2-3 hours initially and now we push it to 3-4 hours. We also used a crate for the first 3-4 weeks and then started her weaning off that too once she learned what she's supposed to do. I did the same thing with my own dog and many dogs after that.

Dogs aren't bad and he's certainly not doing it out of spite or to piss you off... He just never learned otherwise.... Getting frustrated won't help but you already know that. Key is for you to find a way to show him what you want of him.... every dog learns a bit different but from my experience the crate/frequent potty breaks/praise when they go is a pretty bullet proof method for most dogs out there. It takes a few dedicated weeks and some work but it'll be all worth in the end.

 

[littledevils]

Just wanted to say... even if your pup is a puppy mill dog... it still works as well... I've had 2 extremely fearful (one feral), submissive dogs...

The feral puppy from a mill up North would just hide underneath my bed... In her case it really helped having my super confident "I'm not scared of anything" male as after a few days she would start copying him... If he peed, she peed. If he pooped, she pooped. If he ate, she ate.

The first time I went to put a leash on her she FREAKED like I've never seen a dog freak out. She was so terrified that she tried everything to get away, sheer panic. Having my dog there really helped her a lot. After a week I had her play and romp at the park.

The other one was a 11 yr old rat terrier who spent his first 10 years as a puppy mill stud dog until he was too old to produce pups and was sold to a totally incompetent family. I found him as a stray and when I went to return him they asked me if I didn't know anybody who would want a dog... supposedly he was stupid and couldn't be taught anything. I would just have to look at him and he'd roll over and pee himself. He too wouldn't let me know when he had to go outside because he too simply was never taught otherwise. He too wasn't used to walk and would just stop walking. It took me 2 months to get him to play with a toy (the folks who had him for a year said that "he never plays") and it was probably the first time in many many many years that he played: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJSyCAAHe6w (yes I sound like an idiot but c'mon! It was a breakthrough and we were THRILLED). It took a while and he's still pretty submissive (though doesn't urinate himself anymore) but his new dad takes him hiking offleash and he knwos a whole bunch of other tricks now.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... You can do this! It just takes a lot of work and a lot of patience!

 

[Moon]

General house training tips will not work with a submissive/nervous/excited peeing dog. He needs to get his confidence up.

 

[RatsForever]

I can sympathize...best of luck!

 

[sausage4ever]

fenshae There is one thing I do with under confident dogs, and it's really easy. First Totoro has to see you as an authority figure, if he looks at you like that then your next step is to always show yourself with an air of confidence when you are around him.

What I mean is you have to walk upright and feel confidence in yourself. You will probably need other tools to help him house train but for leash walking this really helps. I have trained three dogs to walk confidently on leash with this.

It started with Bianca the bulldog I fostered. She grew up in a kennel in Hungary and then livec in a house until she came to me at 15months of age. She could walk on leash, because she was trained for show but she was very jumpy and would bolt at loud noises. After I started showing confidence on our walks she too would feel confident. Next I trained my landlord's Beardie to walk on leash for me. This dog could walk on leash but would only do so for my landlord and sometimes her son. On top of this this dog would refuse to come in the house for my landlord unless my landlord had cheese. I began walking this dog with my air of confidence and by the end of the school year (eight months later), the dog would walk perfectly beside me and I could even run her off-leash with no problems. Lastly I trained our family dog Penny to stop barking/lunging at people, dogs and bikes. Penny needed to be physically corrected in the beginning but now I only need to keep my air up and she's fine. And as proof the this works if you drop this air for any of those dogs by being distracted or upset then their problems reappear.

 

[littledevils]

General house training tips will not work with a submissive/nervous/excited peeing dog. He needs to get his confidence up.

Sure they do! It worked for the super submissive/terrified 11 yr old ex puppy mill dog and the 3 month old terrified, feral pup and my friends toy poodle who (just like this dog) was owned by an elderly woman who never left the house (not even potty breaks in the yard)... My friends toy poodle was never socialized nor house trained and who was a nervous wreck/scared of everything and everybody.

In all cases we followed basic housetraining as if they were wee pups (well Sage the feral was a wee pup) incl using a crate but most important thing is taking the dog out every few hours and be consistent with training ie have a fixed schedule/fixed potty spot/fixed routine. Some steps were modified according to the dogs which without meeting your dog I can't tell you but where you just have to go with your instinct and watch the dog. Yes in each case it took longer than with my confident alpha male pup plus with small dogs it also generally takes a bit longer but it works. (My male was an excitement peeing dog, as soon as we'd come home and we said hi to him, he'd let go so we plain and simple ignored him for the first few minutes until he excitement was over as talking to him just pushed him over the edge)

If a dog doesn't know what you want from him and was obviously never shown and never went through basic housebreaking training you just have to go waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back and start from the beginning and set up a good foundation. Do I use a different body language/tone of voice with an alpha male than a terrified submissive dog... you bet....

In all the years of having dogs around me whether friends' dogs, foster dogs or my own I have never had an issue with potty training and I follow the same basic steps for every dog.

Does the dog need more confidence? Sure he does but that doesn't mean that you can't go back to potty training 101 and at the same time work on his confidence. Heck if you feel frustrated with teh dog, the dog will sense it and it sure as hell doesn't help his confidence vs if you do set him up for success and take him out and make a big fuss about how wonderful he is and what a good boy he is. Him being so submissive doesn't mean I start yelling at the top of my lungs and do a crazy happy dance like with a confident pup but a "what a good boy, a few pets and a cookie" goes a long way.

 

[Moon]

Yes, he needs to be properly housebroken, but even with that submissive peeing can still occur, as it is a separate issue and can not always be treated the same. My point is that he needs to be worked with on his fear issues in general.

 

[littledevils]

Yes, he needs to be properly housebroken, but even with that submissive peeing can still occur, as it is a separate issue and can not always be treated the same. My point is that he needs to be worked with on his fear issues in general.

Oh yes, that I agree with.... Those are two separate issues and that can take time for sure and no puppy pads or anything will help with that.... With the rat terrier who did it it took a few weeks until he stopped doing it every time I just looked at him.

 

[fenshae]

Thanks for all the feeback guys

I'm feeling a lot better about the whole situation...it's hard to stay angry at the bug-eyed little monster for too long. When I have a little extra cash available, I want to see about enrolling us (me, the boyfriend, and the dog) in some classes at Petsmart. I know the trainer from when I used to work there and he's pretty good.

Now if I could just train these obnoxious neighborhood kids.....