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sonnyvincent

sonnyvincent

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
186
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Hello again, I'm sorry to only appear when there is a health crisis....

This year we've lost one rat each month since May, all due to different causes. We have no girls left of our original 11-member rat family of 6 girls and 5 boys. Just lost Dallas a couple weeks ago. I am still so sad from having lost her. Nothing like prancing into the vet determined and believing she could be saved to finding out it was too late and leaving with her remains wrapped in a towel :( Losing all these rats is wearing on me. We should've thought about that when we got 11 rats so close in age. That they'd end up dying one on top of the other. Never thought it would be so hard. ANYWAY-----

Now we have 3 boys who are sick, with different symptoms. One has issues off and on and he seems to be on the right track now. But two of them, cagemates and brothers, I am worried about.

Dijon & Bradford are littermates. They were probably about 22 months old. They share a cage with Thayer who is approximately a month older than they are and symptom free at this time.

Dijon I think will be our September loss. I hope not but I'm worried. He's always been smaller than the other guys but a couple weeks ago he started looking thinner and he was breathing faster. Amoxicillin didn't help. Have switched to baytril/doxy + pred and will give it 3 days then to the vet we will go. Without signs of improvement I've been told on other groups that probably means CHF or cancer.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4p1UWwfMdg[/ame]

Also this one of Dijon

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tS5UP_1afIg[/ame]

Next is Bradford. Started heavier breathing Friday night. Noticed pyrphorin and a couple sneezes Saturday so started on Doxy/Baytril last night. He seemed worse today-- more obsessed with his nose and uncomfortable. But still eating and drinking a LOT. Refusing the strawberry flavoring so I'd love suggestions on what to use instead to mix with the doxy. Syringe dosing is stressful to both he and to me. He does not like Ensure or Pedialyte. Anyway here is his video. He's been the epitomy of health except for one bout with myco last August. (Same goes for Dijon....)

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6hcwZYlJaI[/ame]

Please advise--- do you see something I might be missing in these vids? Their symptoms are (to me) quite a bit different, as Dijon hasn't had pyrphorin or sneezing or anything of that sort and has progressively shown signs of issues. Bradford's seems more straight forward URI or myco as it came on quickly, etc.

Also, I'm giving the third rat in the cage preventative meds. Is that a mistake? And should I give Bradford pred?

Finally, please, suggestions on flavoring. I'm drawing a blank.

Thank you.
 
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In my opinion, Dijon is very ill. He needs a vet yesterday (as the saying goes).
It could be advanced URI, pneumonia, CHF, could be pulmonary abscesses. Reminds me a lot of Rocky's pulmonary abscesses. I would get him to the vet, get an xray, get him in an oxygen tank.
I don't have sound on my computer right now, so I can't hear anything. But seeing Dijon, he needs a vet.
Bradford looks a little rough too, I imagine after a few days of Baytril/Doxy (dose high - 15mg/kg and 5mg/kg respectively) he would show improvement. If not he may need an xray to investigate further treatments.

Just seeing your post is from two days ago, how are they doing now?
Feel better soon boys!

Oh for flavors, I typically just mix meds in baby food. Try the fruit flavors or chicken and rice is very well liked too.
 
Vet asap !!

With respire. issues I have found baytril + azithromycin (10 mg/Ib) orally, twice a day, to be effective ..... although a few times I have needed to add doxy to the other two meds

good luck at the vet
 
Hi I wanted to update and ask for help from medical contributors.

I took Dijon to the vet Tuesday. I will attach the photo of one of the X-rays-- apparently his lungs are pushed up due to fluid built up inside him. The vet said she can't get a clear view of the heart to tell if it's heart failure or if there's even a mass due to all the fluid. She RX'd Furosemide (Lasix) which I was told is what I should ask for. She also told me to take Dijon off the antibiotics (Doxy & Baytril) for now. Two days later and there is no improvement. He's hanging his head over the side of the cage to the next level still, which I was told is a sign of him struggling to breathe. Although I was told it can take 3 days for Lasix to show an improvement, I just would've expected to see something by now. Unless he still needs the antibiotics. The dosage she gave was (for a 465 gram rat) .09 2X/day 1% per mL. I do not know if that's enough to give you guys an idea of if he's on a high enough dosage or not. Also whether I should re-add them or perhaps prednisolone, which I have access to due to my cat's asthma. What do you think?

The other two rats with Dijon are on antibiotics because of Bradford's symptoms. He isn't sneezing or having porphyrin anymore but his breathing still seems a bit fast. Not nearly as bad as Dijon's. The vet has me coming back in two weeks and having Dijon on the Lasix for two weeks so hopefully to get rid of the fluid so she can see better what is going on with him. Is two weeks too long to wait? Especially since there hasn't been improvement? Or should I really wait out the three days before expecting any improvement? I read Lasix can be a diagnostic tool for heart failure, but if it isn't effective what could that mean? (Assuming the dosage isn't too low).

As far as dosages, the vet told me I was good with Baytril but too high on Doxy. Thoughts?:
Bradford Weight 670 grams. Baytril .10 (10% liquid added to baby food) & Doxycycline .34 (100 mg capsule mixed with 5 mL syrup)
Thayer Weight 555 grams Baytril .08 (10% liquid added to baby food) & Doxy .27 (100 mg capsule mixed with 5 mL syrup)
(When he was on the antibiotics) Dijon Weight 465 grams Baytril .07, Doxy .23

So I guess my main questions are do dosages look right for Brad & Thayer, and does the dosage for the Lasix look right for Dijon -- and whether I should re-add the antibiotics or add prednisolone? They're all eating/drinking/etc. But Dijon still seems quite miserable.

xray.jpg
 
Is your vet sure the lungs are being compressed by fluid or a solid mass instead? Three days is plenty long enough for lasix to have helped. You should see some sign of improvement after a day, and if she gave it as an injection it only takes a couple of hours. Its how we ruled out heart issues while my rat was at vets. X-ray, lasix injections, wait 2 hours then x-ray to see if there was a dramatic improvement...there wasn't.

I'll have to look at the dosages in a minute so I'll post after that.
 
She did not give an injection. She just gave me the liquid lasix. At this time it's been 2 days (he just had his 5th dose). She seemed confident it was fluid. She had an Xray from another view but I didn't get that one.
 
I think if it was CHF you would have had a result from the Lasix by now, it is very fast acting.

I see no reason why he should have been taken off the antibiotics though ?
 
Velo said:
I think if it was CHF you would have had a result from the Lasix by now, it is very fast acting.

I see no reason why he should have been taken off the antibiotics though ?
Click to expand...

I don't know either. I guess because she doesn't think he has an infection (no other symptoms).

So if it's not CHF what else could it be? Could it be a mass not fluid? I really thought this was the best vet that I had gone to yet for rats. Unless the dose is too low which might explain why it isn't working? I really don't want to lose him but at this point just want to know what's wrong.
 
I would keep him on the antibiotics. An infection usually comes in with other illness. As in, the stress of any illness will often cause a rat to develop a URI. If you give him the pred, you should definitely keep him on an antibiotic - steroids weaken the immune system.
What did she hear when she listened to his lungs?

Yes, it could be a mass in lieu of fluid. It could be infection or a tumor. Honestly, rat x-rays are notoriously difficult to decipher. It is, from what I understand, often near impossible to determine a difference between a tumor, a liquid mass, etc.
I'm sure she is a good vet, she's likely trying her best. I just don't agree that he should have been taken off antibiotics. Did he decline without them?

Honestly, I'm confused about the 1% strength means. We sometimes refer to Baytrail 100mg/ml as Baytril 10%, so it could mean the strength is 10mg/ml. Lasix dosage can range, and I am not versed enough to know the best strength (Lilspaz probably knows)
But standard reading leads to an indication that 2mg/kg twice a day should cut it. If the Lasix is indeed 10mg/ml then he has been receiving 2mg/kg twice a day.
Again, I'm not sure about the strength.
 
I went through your antibiotic doses:
//edited for consistency with new dosing//
Bradford
Baytril .10 twice a day or .20 once a day
Doxy .34 twice a day

Thayer
Baytril .09 twice a day or .18 once a day
Doxy .28 twice a day

Dijon
Baytril .07 twice a day or .14 once a day
Doxy .24 twice a day

PS:
Make sure Dijon is getting lots of water, Lasix can cause dehydration.
You can offer watermelon or cucumber to help with that. Check for dehydration by pinching the fur on his back - it should immediately flatten back down. If it stays in an up, "tented" position for and the skin goes flat slowly, then he is dehydrated.
 
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The putting his head over the side of the cage is new... and I'm not sure I can say if that is due to being taken off antibiotics or due to the mass/liquid/whatever it is inside him. He was steadily every day doing a little worse before so I would almost say that it's as if he's been on nothing at all, this whole time (when he was on antibiotics and now that he's on Lasix). I'm sure she went by whatever guidelines are out there. If it's a mass there's probably not anything that can be done? I don't want to torture him with all these meds, unless the prednisolone would at least help him feel a little more comfortable? She had me set up an appointment two weeks out. So I'm not sure if she thought that's how long it would take for the Lasix to work or what--- I just don't know what to do. I feel like people online know more than the vets but they're necessary to get the scans and some of the medications, but if she was mistaking a mass for fluid and didn't even realize it could be either that really bothers me. I hate seeing him like this. But he still eats and drinks and he loves his cagemates, he isn't always hanging his head over the level of the cage. I hate this. I'd really like to go a month without losing one of my babies.
 
sonnyvincent said:
The dosage she gave was (for a 465 gram rat) .09 2X/day 1% per mL. I do not know if that's enough to give you guys an idea of if he's on a high enough dosage or not. Also whether I should re-add them or perhaps prednisolone, which I have access to due to my cat's asthma. What do you think?


As far as dosages, the vet told me I was good with Baytril but too high on Doxy. Thoughts?:
Bradford Weight 670 grams. Baytril .10 (10% liquid added to baby food) & Doxycycline .34 (100 mg capsule mixed with 5 mL syrup)
Thayer Weight 555 grams Baytril .08 (10% liquid added to baby food) & Doxy .27 (100 mg capsule mixed with 5 mL syrup)
(When he was on the antibiotics) Dijon Weight 465 grams Baytril .07, Doxy .23

So I guess my main questions are do dosages look right for Brad & Thayer, and does the dosage for the Lasix look right for Dijon -- and whether I should re-add the antibiotics or add prednisolone? They're all eating/drinking/etc. But Dijon still seems quite miserable.
Click to expand...

The dosage for lasix is the low end at 2 mg/kg, but is correct. The range is 2-5 mg/kg, so you could double if you want to try for a few days.

You did a great job with your baytril and doxy calcs. You used the newer 15 mg/kg for baytril and 10 mg/kg for doxy that people are finding is more effective these days :)
 
If it's a tumor, then there's not really anything that can be done. There may be some steroidal treatments you can do to try and help prevent the growth and inflammation, potentially some lifestyle or holistic options. If it's a an abscess mass, then antibiotics can prevent growth. If it is liquid, then Lasix can help to dissipate the liquid.
Two weeks isn't excessively long, what she was likely thinking was that it was a period of time that would show whether the mass grew, shrank or did nothing. If your looking at growth, then you probably have a tumor. A shrink or nothing means you keep going with treatment or maybe even add something in. X rays aren't cheap and they can be stressful for everyone and potentially even dangerous, so you don't want to rush into one too quickly after you just did one.

Some vets might not be comfortable admitting "I don't know if it's a mass or liquid", which I don't necessarily agree with. Your best option is to find someone you can trust and understand that you will likely be learning with them and that they will try new things with you and study more along the way. It is a true rarity to find a vet who REALLY knows their rat stuff - I hear everyone in Canada talking about Dr.Munn, and I'm guessing they are the only vet out there who is this dream rat vet we all dream of. It takes a lot of real world experience to treat rats, and that's why the internet seems to have a lot of answers. But a vet can't go off what people online say - granted a lot of it can be good information, but they take oaths to follow science. So a really great vet will listen to you, they will find scholarly journals and scientific evidence and they will try new treatments with you.

I'm sorry, I know it's hard. I know your frustrated and upset. It sounds like he is willing and wanting to fight though, so that helps.
Maybe you can call your vet and express your concerns. Ask if there is anything else you can do: a bronchodilator? pain relief? anti inflammatory?
The pred may very well make him a little more comfortable (take some pressure off his chest/lungs potentially). You may want to ask about Metacam too, it offers pain relief and an anti inflammatory.



lilspaz68 said:
The dosage for lasix is the low end at 2 mg/kg, but is correct. The range is 2-5 mg/kg, so you could double if you want to try for a few days.

You did a great job with your baytril and doxy calcs. You used the newer 15 mg/kg for baytril and 10 mg/kg for doxy that people are finding is more effective these days :)
Click to expand...

Oh man I had no clue people were using 10mg/kg for Doxy nowadays. Of course I was getting the vibe that everyone was finding Doxy less effective and dropping it all together. Very interesting!
 
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All night except when eating or drinking :( Very worried

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPj5vGxKdbE[/ame]
 
you can also give the Lasix 3 or 4 times a day if needed ... but watch out for dehydration as it can kill

If you think it is an infection you may want to add azithromycin (10 mg/Ib, orally, twice a day for at least 6 weeks ) to the baytril and doxy
Azithromycin can be purchased from a pharmacy using a prescription from your vet

If antibiotics do not help, it could also be a heart problem
 
Dijon was doing better today; the only time he hung his head over the cage was after medicine time (maybe from all the eating since I mix the meds with food). He was in a different spot of the cage as he has been since he's been sick for most of the day. But I don't know whether to attribute the improvement to adding prednisolone, or to upping the dose of Lasix (from .09 to .16). So it's still a mystery to me what's wrong with him. So far no dehydration; I got watermelon and he also still drinks from the water bottle. Stools a bit soft and he is refusing pumpkin but he definitely had a better day today than he's had in awhile...

The problem now is Bradford, his cagemate, is doing the heavy breathing too. He was having upper respiratory symptoms which is why he's been on antibiotics, and those symptoms (sneezing, wet nose) are better but as with Dijon he's breathing heavily and is not as active as he normally is. They are litter mates; so I guess it could just be a coincidence if both are having similar issues (whether it's heart failure or a mass) but it just seems odd that they'd have the same problem within a couple weeks of each other unless it was something transmittable, doesn't it? I'm really worried about both of them; Bradford is my sister's heart rat and I'd hate to think he has something that can't be treated.
 
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One of my guys started having breathing issues. I always suspected him of heart issues because he is colder that my other nakies. Now he finally has an audible heart murmur. He is on Benazepril (ACE inhibitor), Lasix (diuretic), Prednisone (steroid) and Baytril (antibiotic). He was doing quite poorly and I was worried I would have to euthanize him. He finally stabilized after a week or so and is now doing OK, although he still gets wheezy when excited. We put him on Pred twice a day initially until things settled down. Now he is on Pred once every other day. The Baytril is just to head off any opportunistic infections. He gets the Benazepril, Lasix and Baytril twice a day. This will be for the rest of his life. But he's still with us, so don't lose hope. I think your vet needs to add more meds. Everything to gain by trying, nothing to lose...
I think your vet also needs to have a really good listen to your other boys to see how their lungs sound.
 
Joanne- when did he show improvement? Was it once he was on lasix, or once he was on the heart medication? I'm concerned that dijon hasn't shown improvement on Lasix. Not to mention that Bradford is doing worse and now the third rat in the cage is having symptoms (chirping noises and wiping at his nose, breathing a little faster than usual).
 
Have you tried a combo of 3 antibiotics -> baytril + doxy + azithromycin (10 mg/Ib, can be purchased from a pharmacy by prescription from your vet) orally, twice a day for at least 6 weeks?
Because it sounds like you may have a virus

If they have fluid in their lungs they may need Lasix until the antibiotics help .... if this is a resp. infection
 

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