Should I? ... or ... Shouldn't I?

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PiedPiper

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2008
Messages
1,572
Location
Maple, Ontario
So ... most of you know that I've got seven boys. The big-TEA's consisting of Chai, EarlGrey and Tazo who currently live in a double FN and the baby-TEA's - Keemun, Mokka, Rooibas and Zen who live in the Martin's R695. I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact that these guys will NEVER become "the group of seven" and have put that little pipe dream to rest. Intro's have gotten from bad to worse. Zen has started self-barbering, which I believe may be due to the stress of having to endure these awful intro's. I do realize that part of the problem could be me and my lack of experience with this, but I've done all that I can within my comfort zone. I've thought about neutering, but they're ALL being a bunch p**kerheads so it would mean having to do all of them, which would be an expensive outlay ... with no guarantees. I know, I know, some of you are saying, get on with it already, Pied - what's your point?!?

My point is ... the baby-TEA's aren't such "babies" anymore. There are four of them in the Martin's and only three in the double FN. If they're not all going to live together ... should I be thinking about ousting Chai, Earl and Tazo from the FN :sad3: and transferring them into the Martin's and moving the baby-TEA's into the FN? I know many of you will think I'm just being silly but ... I feel so guilty just thinking about it! :(

Alternatively ... anyone wanna come over to my house and do these intro's for me? .... Ummmm ... I'm not kidding. :sad3:

Sooo ... should I? Or shouldn't I?
 
Oh boy... I sure do know what you mean. You feel so guilty taking away such a huge home for the three older boys and that's gotta make you feel guilty. This is tough call.
I also totally understand your need to step back and not longer do intros. Intros are super stressful on rats and on humans as well. If your nerves just can't take it, it's best to leave it alone cause the rats feel that negative energy. Besides, rats are quite happy in their smaller groups as well.
How old are the three older boys?
Have you entertained the idea of splitting your FN in two? Older boys at the top, younger boys at the bottom? Each FN area is suitable for 6 rats. So three in the top part and four in the bottom part is definitely big enough. You would still be taking a lot of room away from the older boys but do they really fully use the whole FN?
I really prefer the FN to the 695. Just the fact of it being 36 x 25, gives it loads of room as compared to 30 x 18. Of course, ideally, it would be both sets get their own complete 142 FN but that's not economically feasible and it's a lot of space for only 3 or 4 rats. Although more space is always better should you decide to go that route.
Ok... I just noticed I rambled on quite a bit... :giggle:

If you lived closer Gina, I'd be over there in a flash making your ratties play nice or at least identify which ones would need neutering. :cuddle:
 
I would split the FN, keeping the older TEA's on top (its the preferred place for rats, plus if they were below they might find wee TEA tails tasty).

3 on top, 4 below is a good number. Are the young TEA's big enough for FN spacing now? And where are pics please to prove it? :stickpoke:
 
I second what Jo said. Split the FN in two and place one group in each half. That is what I would do if it were me in a heartbeat. I used to be the kind who insisted my rats needed these massive huge cages but what I learned from all of that is that they take up a lot of room. Require a lot of upkeep (as far as cleaning) and my rats weren't using the whole cage to its full potential. Especially my boys. More often then not my boys were only using about 1/10th of the full cage. So I down sized and combined cages into two cages and now both the rats are happy and I am happy. So long as cage calc says it will fit the amount of rats I have in a cage that works for me these days.

As for the intros I also agree that if I lived close to you I would be over there in a heartbeat to help out. But I too agree don't push it if you don't feel comfortable with it.

Oh on last piece of advise if you do divide your FN in two make sure you cover the ramp between the two sections very very well with something that they can not move. Before I figured out what was going on I had to have two rats tails amputated due to munched tails between that ramp. I had something blocking it but they would push it to the side and get into fights between those bars. And amazing enough it was the rats below who would get their tails munched don't ask me how. I think rats would reach down from above to pull the rat into their cage and onlhy get the tail and then munch? Who knows. ok enough rambling.....

Staci
 
jorats said:
Oh boy... I sure do know what you mean. You feel so guilty taking away such a huge home for the three older boys and that's gotta make you feel guilty. This is tough call.
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Thanks for understanding, Jo. I am absolutely agonizing over this. I feel like I'm being disloyal to my big boys for even considering it.
jorats said:
I also totally understand your need to step back and not longer do intros. Intros are super stressful on rats and on humans as well. If your nerves just can't take it, it's best to leave it alone cause the rats feel that negative energy. Besides, rats are quite happy in their smaller groups as well.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I might as well face it. I totally suck at intro's. :lol:
jorats said:
How old are the three older boys?
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They are approximately nine months old now.
jorats said:
Have you entertained the idea of splitting your FN in two? Older boys at the top, younger boys at the bottom? Each FN area is suitable for 6 rats. So three in the top part and four in the bottom part is definitely big enough. You would still be taking a lot of room away from the older boys but do they really fully use the whole FN?
Click to expand...
I hadn't even though of that as I just assumed that the R695 was bigger than a single FN. I would say the older boys use about 3/4's of their FN 142, so it I'd still be taking some space away from them but that could be offset by the fact that they are allowed access to the entire Rat Room for their free range time because they are very good about coming when they are called. The babies are only allowed access to the table top as some of them continue to be skittish and still try to avoid being handled. If I gave them access to the whole room, trying to get them back into their cage would be a nightmare.
jorats said:
I really prefer the FN to the 695. Just the fact of it being 36 x 25, gives it loads of room as compared to 30 x 18. Of course, ideally, it would be both sets get their own complete 142 FN but that's not economically feasible and it's a lot of space for only 3 or 4 rats. Although more space is always better should you decide to go that route.
Click to expand...
Two double FN's are not feasible mostly due to space restrictions so that's not an option. But, I'm with you on the FN's! I absolutely adore mine! Much more so than the Martin's and knowing that a single FN has a bigger footprint than a Martin's goes a long way towards easing my mind about splitting the cage in two.
jorats said:
If you lived closer Gina, I'd be over there in a flash making your ratties play nice or at least identify which ones would need neutering. :cuddle:
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Awww shucks, Jo. Thanks. I really wish we all weren't so spread apart in times like this. It would've been so nice if all my boys could've been one big happy family. I guess some things just weren't meant to be.
 
lilspaz68 said:
I would split the FN, keeping the older TEA's on top (its the preferred place for rats, plus if they were below they might find wee TEA tails tasty).
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Thanks, Shelagh. I'm thinking that's what I'll do ... and knowing that the top is the preferred spot will ease my conscience a little about displacing my beloved big boys.
lilspaz68 said:
Are the young TEA's big enough for FN spacing now?
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Yikes! That's a very good point!! I'm quite confidant that the Liverpool boys are big enough ... but, Clark's boys are still very shrimpy. How big should they be? I might have to modify the bottom part so that Mokka and Zen can't slip out. And there's no doubt in my mind that those two monkeys would in a heartbeat! :giggle:
 
:heart: :heart: I am glad to hear that our Liverpool boys are getting big. We tried very hard to give them great care while they were here......They were so tiny and skinny when we got them. I would love to see new pictures sometime......
 
OldsGal said:
Oh on last piece of advise if you do divide your FN in two make sure you cover the ramp between the two sections very very well with something that they can not move.
Click to expand...
I was planning to order another solid pan to completely cover the area around the ramp. That should do the trick, shouldn't it?

Thanks to all for your advice. I've pretty much made up my mind that that's what I'll do.
 
yup.. split the fn in two.. :joy:
actually ... we have found that this has helped with stubborn intros a little... (i know you arent up to intros right now and thats ok.. ).. so maybe its just our imagination.. but we found that splitting it into two.. and keep rotating them from top to bottom, so they get used to each others smells.. kinda helped us. :joy:
 
Dahlas said:
:heart: :heart: I am glad to hear that our Liverpool boys are getting big. We tried very hard to give them great care while they were here......They were so tiny and skinny when we got them. I would love to see new pictures sometime......
Click to expand...
OMG! Dahlas! You would be so surprised! Remember teeny, tiny little Lewis (Keemun)? Well, not anymore! He's the BIG man around campus now! Definitely a bit on the "portly" side. I know, I know - you all want PICTURES! My bad! I'm a terrible photographer, but I'll see if I can get one of the kids to do a photo shoot and then upload the pictures for me. I promise!
 
dubchick said:
actually ... we have found that this has helped with stubborn intros a little... (i know you arent up to intros right now and thats ok.. ).. so maybe its just our imagination.. but we found that splitting it into two.. and keep rotating them from top to bottom, so they get used to each others smells.. kinda helped us. :joy:
Click to expand...
Really? I was kind of hoping it would, are boys generally harder to intro than girls ... or does it just depend on the rats.
 
I think boys are harder....but I am not sure as I have not done many intro......

I remeber little Lewis when he was so small and so skinny.....
new861.jpg

Picture094-1.jpg
 
I've only really tried one boy-to-boys intro and was unsuccessful, but then he was neutered to be with girls and that was hopeless too (my Alfred :heart: )
I find a world of difference between neutered boys and unneutered boys tho.. And my Savanna girl :heart: wouldn't be with other girls til she got spayed .
Do your findings have anything to do with the fact that all your girls are spayed Jo? And your boys aren't always neutered are they? Tho your intros may be before the surgery sometimes?
Just wondering how much of the intro-agreeableness is due to being fixed?
 
In the past, I would only neuter the trouble makers, but it was still always tricky doing boy intros. Sebbie is neutered and it's still tricky with him. As for the girls, I really do believe that the spay does help too. I remember my sister's girls before the spays and before the "how to intros", we used to just throw in the newbies. Only once was there a problem but Irene was eventually accepted.

Currently, I'm trying to intro Cande and Nessie, the outcast of the big crew with the NB rats. They have been accepted by unaltered Rufus and Jasper but Calia and neutered Remi are proving to be real ...jerks. That's the only word for them. lol
 
<sigh> It sounds like it's a bit of a crapshoot, no matter what you do. I have toyed with the idea of neutering all of them, but <gulp> that's a lot of money, especially when there are no guarantees. And then, what for? To fulfill a pipe dream of mine? To have a great big cage full of lots of rats? The boys are all happy living in their respective groups, I need to just let it go, accept that and let them be. Besides, if I split the FN into two separate apartments. I will have a great big cage full of lots of rats, right? :wink2:
 

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