scared boy, bites, is something else going on?

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ChrisK

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2009
Messages
1,376
Location
Ottawa, Canada
I'm fostering a boy rattie who was surrendered by someone because he bites -- as in drawing blood. After his intake, he was neutered, and now I have him just a few weeks while his hormones settle down.

I've been careful, but I've been bitten a few times. Mostly to me, though, he just looks very scared. He's not overly social with me. But I'm noticing some behaviours I think are somewhat strange, and now I'm wondering if something else is going on with him.

When I give him food close to my finger tips, he sometimes bites my fingertips hard -- I think he thinks he's getting the food but he's missed. Tonight when I took him out, he wouldn't come out of the carrier. So I slowly pulled the fleece liner out, and then he got kinda freaked out. He ran out, ran around frantically looking for something.. hid for a moment in an igloo where he pooped, and he went back into the carrier several times but didn't recognize it without the fleece. His breathing was hard -- he was really scared.

Once I realized this, I put the fleece back into the carrier, and he ran back in.

Is this normal scardy-cat behaviour? Or does it sound like something's wrong with his vision or one of his senses? I'm not sure if this is all fear or if it's something else..
 
How old is he and was he like this before the neuter?
Also, how many homes has he been now since being surrendered? Did he go directly to you? Some rats really can't take changes.
 
jorats said:
How old is he and was he like this before the neuter?
Also, how many homes has he been now since being surrendered? Did he go directly to you? Some rats really can't take changes.
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Not sure his age -- he's full grown. probably between 6 months and a year old. I didn't know him much before the neuter, but he was a biter before for sure, and when I picked him up to take him to his neuter surgery, he looked scared to me.

He was rescued by someone else, went to the rescue for two weeks after the neuter, and now is with me for one week so far.

It's hard to get him to come out at all some days. Last night I noticed if I turned off all the lights, and just held a little flashlight, he seemed more relaxed and came out for a few minutes.
 
Hmmm sounds like the poor little guy has gone through allot in the past few weeks, I would assume that anyone shipped around and then put through a surgery and then had to relocate somewhere else with strange sounds and smells would seem a bit uneasy. Does the heavy breathing seem like hes short of breath or just angry? The biting is probably because he is just super scared, he probably just need consistency. Is he running around and bumping into stuff? Any head tilts, or mites? Bumping into things can probably be a few things but definitely something to check in on, and head tilts are bad, and mites will sometimes make them a bit grumpy ie. aggressive.

Try giving him treats like you would a horse, flat hand. My one rattie norbert is a grabber and if hes super excited he will mis-calculate and chomp on my fingers hard. But he doesn't really mean it he just wants the treat. They also will sometimes nip my toes.

Im assuming he wont let you hold him, but sometimes just sitting with them even if they're hiding allows them to get used to you.
 
littles said:
Does the heavy breathing seem like hes short of breath or just angry? The biting is probably because he is just super scared, he probably just need consistency. Is he running around and bumping into stuff? Any head tilts, or mites? Bumping into things can probably be a few things but definitely something to check in on, and head tilts are bad, and mites will sometimes make them a bit grumpy ie. aggressive.
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He doesn't show any signs of mites, infections, or any other physical illnesses. The reason he was neutered was because of his biting people. And the biting was the reason he was moved around a lot at the start. Once he was rescued, he was neutered because he's very hormonal, and hopefully the neuter would settle him down.. ease the biting issue. And it's possible that will happen once he's past that 40 day mark.. but we're not there yet.. as the two bloody wholes in my finger from tonight's interaction will testify!


littles said:
Im assuming he wont let you hold him..
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Yes, that's correct. At some point almost every day he will come to the door of the cage, and will let me pet him. I've tried a few times to gently grab him under his arms and lift him, but he keeps a death grip on the bars and won't let go.

I've been able to take him out of the cage by using a carrier case, which he seems to be comfortable with. I put it in his cage partially when he's active, and if he feels like it, he jumps in and that's how I get him out.. ughh..
 
You can try trust training with operant conditioning. This will take time. If you are interested in putting in the work, I'll write it out for you.
 
jorats said:
You can try trust training with operant conditioning. This will take time. If you are interested in putting in the work, I'll write it out for you.
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Hi Jo! I expect to have this boy here in foster for about two more weeks. or at least two weeks before I need a rat sitter for an overnight.. anyway.. during his stay, I can give him all the time he needs, and would be very interested in trust training with operant conditioning... if that's enough time to make a difference.?? Although if we're making good progress, I can probably keep him longer.. the plan is for him to go back to the rescue after his hormones calm down, and introduce him to some female rats, so that he doesn't have to live alone.

Thanks.
-ck
 
He may improve greatly once he's fully recovered from the neuter but if he's scared in a neurotic way, trust training with operant conditioning will do him a world of good.
So this is what you do and you can do this several times a day but keep your sessions short like 5 to 10 minutes.
When you see him, open the cage door and put your self, close but not so close that he will run away. The idea is to get him below threshold. Once over threshold, it won't work.
So he's in a corner eating or whatever, you open the cage door and put yourself there. If he moves slightly away, your too close. If he moves towards you, even his eyes, back away. This will show him that when he reacts with curiosity towards you, he gets what he wants and that's you going away. So after a bit, go close again, watch for any small indication that he's curious, a head move, a stretch, sniffing...with those slight moves, you back away and come back again. That's your homework. Several times a day.
 
jorats said:
He may improve greatly once he's fully recovered from the neuter but if he's scared in a neurotic way, trust training with operant conditioning will do him a world of good.
So this is what you do and you can do this several times a day but keep your sessions short like 5 to 10 minutes.
When you see him, open the cage door and put your self, close but not so close that he will run away. The idea is to get him below threshold. Once over threshold, it won't work.
So he's in a corner eating or whatever, you open the cage door and put yourself there. If he moves slightly away, your too close. If he moves towards you, even his eyes, back away. This will show him that when he reacts with curiosity towards you, he gets what he wants and that's you going away. So after a bit, go close again, watch for any small indication that he's curious, a head move, a stretch, sniffing...with those slight moves, you back away and come back again. That's your homework. Several times a day.
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Sounds good! I can do that :)
I see where I've gone wrong to date is that when he seems to be okay with me being close, I keep going, and then get bit. So instead I will back away, as you say. Thanks!
 
Awesome ChrisK, keep me posted. I haven't had a rat that bad that needed it so this will be very interesting. This behaviour modification is done primarily in dogs. It will be wonderful to see it in rats too.
 
When you see him, open the cage door and put your self, close but not so close that he will run away. The idea is to get him below threshold. Once over threshold, it won't work.
So he's in a corner eating or whatever, you open the cage door and put yourself there. If he moves slightly away, your too close. If he moves towards you, even his eyes, back away. This will show him that when he reacts with curiosity towards you, he gets what he wants and that's you going away. So after a bit, go close again, watch for any small indication that he's curious, a head move, a stretch, sniffing...with those slight moves, you back away and come back again. That's your homework. Several times a day.!
Click to expand...

Hi, Chris, Jo invited me to this thread and I'm so grateful for that. The method she suggested is a favorite of mine. I would like to tighten up what she said in a few places, which will help to "nail" it.

- Approach but not so far as to trigger any new alert behavior. That would be going over threshold. It's not running away that is key, it's any new tension or fear behavior. You might have to be 20 feet away outside the door, or 10 feet, or 5, or 2. Go with the rat's behavior. If when you enter the room 10 feet away, he turns away, you'll know you crossed threshold. Do the rest of the steps below at that point, but when you approach again, stop earlier. The whole method cancels out its effectiveness if you inadvertently repeatedly cross threshold.

- Pause and wait and watch for any, even tiny, sign of new calm behavior. You will see it in his body language. It can be a drop of his head, his ability to look off to the side instead of right at you. It's not moving toward you that is important, it's physiological signs of calm. Take the tiniest that you spot. You might spot something in 3 seconds or 10 seconds. When I have practiced this, and then watched myself on video, over and over again I saw I missed the first sign of new calm behavior. I was only looking for large, gross-level signs, and missed the tiny ones. The tiny ones matter most. We want calm behavior to send you away.

- Retreat right ON that sign of new calm behavior, retreat far enough away that, from the rat's perspective, you are really gone. Wait 30 seconds and repeat the above. You can do this maybe 10 times in 5 minutes and stop. As Jo said, several sessions a day.

This method is used successfully with aggressive dogs (including dog-dog aggression), feral cats, zoo animals, and wild or abused horses. It is specifically for when an animal deeply wants the human gone. Deep fear, or deep aggression (where aggression is considered at root to be fear-based).

gwen
 
Gwen, it would be great if you could also make a new thread with that great info, step by step so for future reference, we can use your guide.
 
Thanks Gwen and Jorats for all your help with this! I tried this approach and I found it more difficult than it sounds. Interestingly, my foster boy seemed kind of confused when I drew back.. that is, when I drew back, so did he.. I'm quite certain I wasn't doing it quite right.

But suddenly yesterday, I noticed a huge difference in Buddy. He was much more inquisitive, and when I opened the cage door, he climbed on it, walked right up to me, and then he bit my fingers, but it was a gentle, probing kinda bite -- not the type that draws blood... more of a nibble..

He also came out of his hidy place yesterday, and spent time on the high shelf of his cage -- where he was in plain view.

Then tonight, during out time, not only did he actually come out of his cage, but he ran around exploring for 40 minutes, almost non-stop! He seemed to really be enjoying himself.. no panic behaviours.. and when he had enough, he just went back into his cage. WOW! It's like he's a different rat!

He even came up to me a few times while roaming and exploring.. and no bites!

I'm so excited at this huge change in his behaviour. I got word yesterday that he has a potential adopter.. someone who's aware of his situation.. and I think he's got a good chance at happiness now.. fingers crossed.
 
I've been quietly lurking over this thread waiting to see what would happen. That's great that he has because so content. I hope that he doesn't regress with another move and different surrounding. Do you guys think that is possible and will the new owners have to do this conditioning also?
 
dspch911 said:
I've been quietly lurking over this thread waiting to see what would happen. That's great that he has because so content. I hope that he doesn't regress with another move and different surrounding. Do you guys think that is possible and will the new owners have to do this conditioning also?
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Yes, he might regress if his behaviour change was due to the conditioning but if it was due to the neuter, then he should remain a more stress free boy.
 

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