Rat Psych 101: Dealing with a depressed singleton

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MomRat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2009
Messages
948
Location
Johnson City, TN
The answer any of us would give to the question: What do I do if I have a single rat? is, get them a friend. The easy answer. Someone of a similar age, hormonally reduced by castration, perhaps of the opposite gender, if they are getting older. Some rats are a "rats rat" and just want ratty company. Some rats are a people rat, and can be happy to the end of their days as long as you have them out 4-6 hours a day cuddling(assuming old age here) especially if you are taking a break from rats for awhile. None of the easy answers come to us in our situation, and we're looking for advanced advice.

Gregory is (guesstimate) 26 months old, pet store bred and a year past his neuter. Just starting to show some signs of HED. Gregory is, and always has been, neurotic. No other word for it. Shortly after we got him and Quilt from their previous 'owners,' Quilt had an aggressive hormone jag and notched Gregory's ear. Since then he has been an ear nipper - almost like he has ptsd from it. Never any real damage inflicted, but his response to approach or grooming was often an ear nip. He's never been Alpha material, but he is certainly a bully. Always nervous, and while he has gotten much more comfortable with us over the year + we've had him, he is not a cuddlebug, nor does he seek our company.

As of 4 weeks ago, he was sharing a more or less gero friendly lower half of a CN with his lifelong cagemate Quilt, and our oldie boy Dom who introed with them after losing his own brother, Jacob, almost a year and a half ago. Then, in January, Quilt had his accident and passed, and Dom got old and stopped eating and had to be pts. Several days after Quilt passed, we acquired 3 new 5mo old girls(which was planned long before Quilt got hurt) who are now living in the top half of the cage, full of toys, and wheel, and litter pan, and things to climb and bounce on(we had been asking for intro advice here) And frankly, we'd been hoping that Gregory would pull a Mr Honeycomb on us, and bounce back with new energy and life.

The good news is, intros started out well even before Dominic had to go. Since we had Dom Pts, there have been some spats. Gregory acts like *he* is invading *their* space in fairly neutral intros, and just wants to hide under a blanket/be left alone. Not taking fresh foods from us with vigor, whether stressed in out time or in his half of the cage alone. His sleeping has exceeded its bounds impressively. Additional time out to 'cuddle' with us on the couch seems, for the most part, to just stress him out. It's fairly clear who the new alpha is/will be(Nimmel weighs 2oz more than either of her sisters and has blocked Gregory from entering a hidey house several times, from which he backs down) but we really don't know when to try putting them all together, or if we should. There is every bit of evidence that if we were to find another "old" rat to house him with, they wouldn't get along, and then we'd be stuck with two singles and a CN that can only divide in half. :wallbang: Our only experience with intros was two pairs of intact males, and it was obvious when to cage them together - we had to wait for the fighting to stop. How do you know when to combine groups when there's just general dislike and ignoring of one another?

Sorry for the long post, we're just worried about our little man.
 
I'd definitely have him move into the cage with the girls. How they are during out time is not the same as living together. It will take about a month for things to work itself out and for the dust to settle but until that month of living together, you won't really know how he will be.

Have you read my blog? The last three posts are about my lone Pony.
 
Aw... I'm worried too, for him (though tickled that you said he hoped he'd pull a 'Mr Honeycomb'!).

Mr. Honeycomb still sometimes has spats with the girls - usually when the girls are being particularly bouncy, and all he wants to do is eat. They can't resist bugging him at that time, and after a few plaintive 'oh please, just let me eat!' squeaks from him I squirt the instigator with a water bottle. Usually calms things down perfectly, because the girl is off to sulk and groom.

I totally agree with your general assessment of a singleton's life - both Plumeria and Mr. Honeycomb were like that after their cagemates passed. Plumeria was happy to be an out-all-the-time girl, but Mr. Honeycomb just needs another rat around to be happy.
 
I recently introduced two groups of rats - my established group of four (three of whom were born here) all over 2 years of age, and a new group of four 3 month olds. I did neutral intros, and non-neutral intros, etc for quite a while. They never did stop squabbling and I just decided to go for it and put them all together after quite a few weeks. They still fight and I noticed a scabbed toe this morning. *SIGH* There is one female who is causing the ruckus, chasing the little ones around. But, most of the time things are quiet and I catch little ones curled up with the older ones.
SO, the moral of the story is, like everyone told me; no blood, no foul. As long as no one is getting hurt, I would put them together and let them scrap it out. Even if the alpha picks on him, the other girls will probably snuggle up with him. I'd watch him and make sure he's eating and not getting too depressed, but he'll probably be ok after a couple of weeks when things settle down.
The addition of the young ones has certainly perked up my oldies!
 
jorats said:
I'd definitely have him move into the cage with the girls. How they are during out time is not the same as living together. It will take about a month for things to work itself out and for the dust to settle but until that month of living together, you won't really know how he will be.

Have you read my blog? The last three posts are about my lone Pony.


As in, go ahead and move him in now? We've had basically a week of not completely neutral territory(the girls played on the bed for a few days before he came out too) And a few days of everyone out on the couch(well established boy territory) and all he really does is hide and cower a bit. Not really "intros" in my mind. I keep thinking we need to dump them all in the bathtub, but there's really no fighting going on. One night there was a scuffle, but thats it.

EDITED TO ADD: Soon as I posted this, Nimmel and Gregory had a fur-ball scuffle that involved a huge chunk of fur pulled out of Gregory's hindquarters. Sigh.
 
Pulling fur is ok... You need to continue intros. Remove all hiding places, make the area small enough so they know they are all there. Add something yummy in the centre so they can eat together.
 
Sigh. My depressed ratty is getting me depressed. I know, keep trying. =) It just kills me how everyone keeps saying that their new young rats re-energized their oldie(s), and all Greg seems to want is to be left alone, except in his cage he just... sleeps. I know I might be projecting, but I also know I want to stop with the lone rat business. :gaah:

Two bathtub intros with subsequent out time together have been sort of... non-eventful, I suppose. Babyfood or yogurt on a plate, and no more than two rats nomming on it at a time. We just can't get everyone eating at once. Gregory was super stressed the first time, to the point of fear pooping til there was nothing really coming out except stink(overshare, I know, sorry). His hed didn't mix well with slippery tub. We put a towel down the second time and it went over better. He just kinda hunkers down somewhere and half closes his eyes to wait for it to end, and if the girls all decide to explore him at once, he kinda panics and hustles off to some other part of the tub.

I know the general recommendation is to remove all hidey-holes when doing this kind of intro, but they just keep maintaining this distance from one another... so I took a risk. We got a Cozygloo from Nic for the girls, and they have had it off and on since we got them, and they all think its rather fabulous(it was their first safe haven when they finally came out of the carrier which we had to place in the cage, they wouldn't let us pull them out). And at this point in the tub, Gregory just wants somewhere to hide. So, I drop the cozygloo right next to Greg while the girls are eating, and he bolts into it. Almost immediately, the girls notice it(or hear his cries of happiness?) and they ALL pile in. Some minor squeaking that kinda sounds like, "hey, that's my face you're stepping on!" but no scuffles. Eventually the girls came back out to keep exploring, and Greg came out and curled up on top of the cozygloo, and then Nimmel, our budding alpha, curled up with him. So progress of a sort, I suppose, its just so hard to tell when to try the cage together. Out on the couch or the bed, they just Ignore each other, completely.
 
Yeah! As long as they're not killing each other, GO FOR IT!!!
He will enjoy the company eventually. The new ones will MAKE him snuggle, and he will soon fall prey to their persistant piling on top of him. I don't worry about rats ignoring each other. It's only when they're biting each other that I worry!
 
So, I cleaned out the lower half of the CN today(where Gregory has been living), added a bunch of clean hammocks, the cozygloo, etc, and tossed everyone in while we had time to keep an eye. Two early scuffles occurred, mostly Gregory v. Jayden, surprisingly enough. And then everything sort of settled down, they let him sleep in his hammock and kept to themselves.

Pretty nasty scuffle this evening though, Luna piled into the hammock with Gregory and it turned into a ball, interspersed with pain-squeals, pinning and flailing. Luna emerged with a mouthful of fur, and Greg is currently hiding beside me on the couch plaintively asking me why I let them into his house...

Edited to add: Just got Greg calmed down enough to look him over, and he has a 3cm slash between his hips on his back. Ouch.

Do we leave them together tonight?
 
Not overnight but when you can watch them again, put them together. The gash, where it's at, is not an attack, it's a zigged when should have zagged.
 
Fights, fights, and more fights. When Gregory is alone, he looks depressed and just sleeps. When they are together in the cage, he is stressed, porphy, and generally getting beaten up. His eyes get porphy, and we're starting him on ABS cause it looks like a URI is flaring...Took a step back to mutual ground, he's still getting beaten up, now on the couch, where no fights had occurred before. Intros started so beautifully... almost two weeks of out time with nothing, and now the alpha is sidestepping him and huffing and puffing, and our smallest sweet girl is a flying fur ball with him. I know we're supposed to just keep trying. But every hour he shares with them, he looks so miserable, and every hour he is alone, he looks sad.

Sorry I'm so down on this intro, its been a hard few weeks personally as well as rattily, and I'm just at my wits end. We went into this expecting the only potential worry being gregory beating up the girls, and now he's covered with scratches and bare patches, and looks at us with this "oh no not again" face every time we put them together....
 
The girls are beating up Gregory? Do you have other males there too? Can you dominate the girls when they go after Gregory? Or at the very least push them away using the palm of your hand and moving their butts. So essentially, you are doing to them what they are trying to do with Gregory. Is there one of the rats that seem to be ok with Gregory? You could do longer intros with that rat and maybe have that rat move in with him for a few hours a day just so he's not alone that much.
 
Gregory is the only boy, everyone else passed away in the last month, before intros could really rightly start. We thought Jayden was ok with Gregory, she cuddled with him on the bed her first few days here, now she is in half the scuffles that draw blood, usually when she pushes her way into the hammock he is in. The only instance of actual dominance occurred for about 3 seconds out here on the couch, earlier, as I said Nimmel was huffing and sidestepping Greg. Everything that has happened so far, there was no opportunity for us to dominate the girls, we took advice given and went ahead and threw them all together in the cage, and since then everything we've dealt with is flying balls of fur, mostly in the cage, a little on the couch. Best we've been able to do is break them up with minimal blood loss ourselves. Can't tell who is starting it, and there are different rats involved every time(except Greg; he's always in there and always losing fur/blood.) When its just the girls scuffling, its playful, no shrieking. Gregory has scuffled with everyone multiple times, at this point. When we intro-ed Greg with his old cage mates, they would always do the, 'I shove my head under yours to demand grooming' thing, and he always froze up and fights started because they kept shoving, and this seems to be happening again. He's just SO antisocial. He seems happiest when we pull him out onto the couch by himself and he can sleep for a while, undisturbed.
 
Well, maybe he would be happier by himself? How much time do you have to devote to keeping him company? Can you keep him with you most of the day?
Another option would be to try an older rat. These girls are young, right? Maybe a rat that doesn't have so much energy would be less inclined to continue to harass him.
 
Gregory is somewhere around 26 months. We don't know exactly as the people we got him and Quilt (RIP) from said they were "about a year old" and were originally PetCo rats, the got Quilt and then Greg a few weeks later when it seemed Quilt "looked lonely". Sigh. And then the boys kept growing for several months after we brought them home, so we just have a guess on his age.

The only rat Gregory has ever gotten along well with was Quilt, his original cagemate. He tolerated Dominic (RIP) but had some difficult intros as he just does not seem to understand how rats behave. If someone grooms him he freaks out and goes defensive. If someone shoves under him in the "groom me now!" way he freezes until they walk away. If rats could be autistic....

He seems lonely without Quilt and Dominic, but these intros have him so anxious it is hard to watch. Our concern with getting another 1-2 year old male is if Greg acts the same way with him. It took Greg months before he would not squeak and fuss when Dominic would join him in a hammock or basket.
 
I would really try to work on these intros before trying a new male out of nowhere.
Greg is definitely the issue here. 26 is not that old that he should be able to get through this. He is stressed because the girls are not submitting to him so it's a matter of him realizing that he needs to accept that. Go back to familiar ground intros.
 
Gregory isn't trying to get anyone to submit to him. He is lashing out when shoved and prodded and aggressed at, otherwise he just tries to stay away from them.

Here was his position for over half of intro time last night, even while there was yogurt available:

DSCN1336.jpg


And a video(wish I'd had the camera out a few seconds earlier, he kept squinting and hunkering and moving slowly as a snail, trying to sneak past one of the girls) It's hard to see, but when they come near him he just squints and hunkers down:



They can't make up their minds. They'll all pile into the cozygloo for a bit, no scuffles, and then two of the girls will go off to poing and he'll get into a fight with the third. Luna is starting to seem the most removed from the power struggle, so we may try her with him some, but I hate to isolate her from her sisters just to give him company he may or may not want...
 
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