PT? Urgent advice needed.

[Tish]

So last Thursday I noticed my boy trying to drink, but unable to.
He has done this before a little but something this time set the alarm bells ringing.
Then I noticed he was sleeping in odd places, for him anyway. Didn't think too much of it but took note.
The same day I noticed he was eating his soaked Harlan but kind of spitting it out everywhere and not really eating it at all. Also he had his head in the bowl instead of scooping and squatting to eat.
My first thought was teeth, tried to check (he hates having his face looked at) they seem ok, maybe a tad long, but aligned and not broken etc.
The same day he went off of his food. He has Oxbow and Harlan, he likes them soaked, he also has oxbow unsoaked, incase he fancies something harder.
Come Fri I notice that he is holding his food with one paw and the reason became apparent for his odd sleeping places, he has slight hind leg weakness and wasn't able to climb as well.
Thinking back, I realized that he has been a little clumsy for a while, losing balance, having little falls of off things.
Back to Friday and still not drinking by himself and now not eating his food at all. He can drink water off of a spoon as long as its mixed with a little fresh corn juice, so that's what ive been doing since. I started him on Prednisone this day incase. His weight was also dropping fast and his poo I noticed was a little dry where he had not been drinking etc. He picked up a yoggy drop and was able to hold food this day.
Must also mention that Skeever has chronic Myco. On long term antibiotics Doxy and Amoxy. He also was castrated back in Jan of this year due to a swollen testicle which turned out to be a cyst and not cancer (thank goodness)
Come Sat he was about the same, though a little more 'doddery', not turning circles or anything, just seemed confused, walking upto things standing there not doing anything. Eating human food ok (watermelon, pasta, egg mayo, lettuce, grapes, rice and mushrooms) Managed to rehydrate him and get those juicy poos going again.
Eyes half closed again today, something else I have noticed lately on and off (is he in pain I wonder)
More often using one paw to eat, could hold and eat lettuce. Sneezing and shaking his head a lot.
Sunday I noticed that he was sometimes standing on his own front paws and that one front paw kind of bunched up a little on the floor when he was trying to eat. Couldn't hold the lettuce today and seems to be having trouble eating it when I hand fed him. Seems that his eyes are going a little too.
Resting food on floor with both hands, managed to hold a cheerio with both hands but went to the floor with it. Seems a little confused.
Today he is eating off of the floor, he is trying to hold things but not as often anymore.
Sorry for the rambling on. The thing is with all these symptoms, he is still walking around ok.
Pred does not sit well with him and has undone all the good work that Baytril did. He gets most active 12 hours after the pred (vet has dose at once a day) There are no signs of walking in circles, he even managed to bunny hop a little yesterday. And today he is walking up a ramp and even managed a tiny jump. He is pulling himself up to compensate his hind leg weakness. Sleeping hunched and I have to watch for him getting cold.
I have the vets in an hour and a half and I am going to suggest getting him started on Cabergoline with a shot of Dex also.
If the vet agrees to this (horrific exp with this vet, but that's for another time) How often should I be expecting the Dex to be given? I am aware of the every three days for the Caber, just not sure on the dex. Is it long term use, or just for a short while until the Caber Hopefully kicks in?
I am noticing him going downhill a little each day...it was only last wed he was running around storing his yoggies. Yet he is not spinning circles or walking that awkwardly, just weaker in his hind and front.
Great appetite and even ate some soaked harlen this morn, mostly all hand fed, though I spied him using one hand today. Couldn't hold the cherio like the other day. Any advice on more food to fatten him up again much appreciated (am trying mashed avocado today)
He is pooing fine and weeing a lot though huge wees, so I suspect UTI is back too. Am thinking of asking to swap his doxy for baytril as the doxy doesn't seem to be doing anything atm. We ran them both side by side for three weeks.
Sorry for such a long post. I am sleeping on the floor next to where ever he is. I have had5 or 6 hours since thurs and not much food because I am so worried. Am a little delirious.
Also feel so guilty that I have caused this in some way, can too much Baytril bring on PT? Could a PT have come on because of his castration? I caught him with my foot a little recently, he didn't squeak and seemed fine but could I have hurt him and caused it?
I am so out of my mind.
Am going to stop talking now. Thank you all for listening and in advance for any advice.
:new:

 

[2Rats]

With what you describe sounds like it could be a PT.
Nothing you have done caused it. Unfortunately many many rats end up with this terrible tumor.

Buy some baby foods & be prepared to syringe feed him if he does not eat a sufficient amount on his own. They can & will lose weight & get dehydrated very quickly & the baby food is key to helping. Prednisone is what kept my girl going & kept the tumor at bay - for a while.
During her battle ( and ultimatly her loss ) with the PT - I kept her on Pred & Baytil. And LOTS of baby foods when she could not feed herself. I always used the rice cereal as a base & added veggie & fruit baby food with it.

Let us know how the vet visit goes . Best wishes headed your way :balloons2:

 

[lilspaz68]

I have 2 with PT right now so I know mean. Where are you located?

 

[Aida]

Inform your vet about bromocriptine, clavamox, and dex. They are medicines that can greatly improve and prolonge a rat's life with PT, along with prednisolone.

 

[Tish]

Thank you for the replies.
I am SO frustrated right now.
He checked Skeevers teeth by bending his head backwards, enough to make him squeak, so now I am worrying that it will have aggravated the tumor...
Told him about dex and that he's been taking Pred. Basically said no to the dex going on and on and on about what it is and how he would have to make it into such a small amount...also told me to stop the pred...
Doesn't have the Caber as they do not use it, and he left it at that, until I made it very clear that we wanted it, would pay anything to get it and that it MUST happen.
He then said it would take him 24 hours to research it as he doesn't know if it is used in Canada or not, and if so, he would have to research where to get it mixed as they would not do it themselves.
Basically he hasn't a clue.
I asked him whether to continue with the Amoxy, as Skeeves has it in little dough balls, but that is becoming dangerous for him to eat as he can't hold. He didn't even answer that.
It is SO upsetting and frustrating trying to tell them what you need when they don't have a clue, only for them to talk to you like you're an idiot.
We are in Prince Rupert, British Columbia, right up on the north coast.
The attitude of my vet is that he is ONLY a pocket pet, they are Amazed at how much trouble we goto for him.
Poor boy, the visit Really took it out of him, though he wandered around a little when we got back, then had a 20 min arm cuddle (which was so special as he has been very antisocial the last few days) and ate some of the food I've already mentioned. Used one hand, but mostly, when I am not hand feeding him, he is starting to push it around and into stuff just so he can eat it.
When I asked the vet for a plan B incase, he just said, Oh he's doing Ok.
I actually started to cry and he just waffled on and on about utter nonsense.
Just utterly horrific.
He said he doesn't want Skeever on the Pred for too long, his lungs sounded a little cloudy today...
Started him on the baytril.
What else can I be doing?
Can I get the Caber in Canada? I feel it's a race against time.
Thank you all for taking time to answer.
I am just beyond heartbroken and keep going into the bathroom to cry so I don't upset my boy.
It is destroying me losing him a little more each day. Why don't people see that a life is a life, no matter how small.
I lost my only child and got Skeever not long after. Whilst I know he is not a substitute child, he IS my baby boy and I Would move heaven and Earth to have him back again.
So Sorry for going on I am just So upset.

 

[lilspaz68]

Thank you for the replies.
I am SO frustrated right now.
He checked Skeevers teeth by bending his head backwards, enough to make him squeak, so now I am worrying that it will have aggravated the tumor...
Told him about dex and that he's been taking Pred. Basically said no to the dex going on and on and on about what it is and how he would have to make it into such a small amount...also told me to stop the pred...
Doesn't have the Caber as they do not use it, and he left it at that, until I made it very clear that we wanted it, would pay anything to get it and that it MUST happen.
He then said it would take him 24 hours to research it as he doesn't know if it is used in Canada or not, and if so, he would have to research where to get it mixed as they would not do it themselves.
Basically he hasn't a clue.
I asked him whether to continue with the Amoxy, as Skeeves has it in little dough balls, but that is becoming dangerous for him to eat as he can't hold. He didn't even answer that.
It is SO upsetting and frustrating trying to tell them what you need when they don't have a clue, only for them to talk to you like you're an idiot.
We are in Prince Rupert, British Columbia, right up on the north coast.
The attitude of my vet is that he is ONLY a pocket pet, they are Amazed at how much trouble we goto for him.
Poor boy, the visit Really took it out of him, though he wandered around a little when we got back, then had a 20 min arm cuddle (which was so special as he has been very antisocial the last few days) and ate some of the food I've already mentioned. Used one hand, but mostly, when I am not hand feeding him, he is starting to push it around and into stuff just so he can eat it.
When I asked the vet for a plan B incase, he just said, Oh he's doing Ok.
I actually started to cry and he just waffled on and on about utter nonsense.
Just utterly horrific.
He said he doesn't want Skeever on the Pred for too long, his lungs sounded a little cloudy today...
Started him on the baytril.
What else can I be doing?
Can I get the Caber in Canada? I feel it's a race against time.
Thank you all for taking time to answer.
I am just beyond heartbroken and keep going into the bathroom to cry so I don't upset my boy.
It is destroying me losing him a little more each day. Why don't people see that a life is a life, no matter how small.
I lost my only child and got Skeever not long after. Whilst I know he is not a substitute child, he IS my baby boy and I Would move heaven and Earth to have him back again.
So Sorry for going on I am just So upset.

You need a new vet. But if not you can get your vet to email mine regarding bromocriptine usage in rats.

www.drmunn.ca

bromocriptine is a lot cheaper than cabergoline and easier to use, (1/2 a pill once a day)

Check my thread on my 2 current PT cases to get an idea on how to treat this...

http://www.ratshackforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29965

 

[Tish]

You need a new vet. But if not you can get your vet to email mine regarding bromocriptine usage in rats.

www.drmunn.ca

bromocriptine is a lot cheaper than cabergoline and easier to use, (1/2 a pill once a day)

Check my thread on my 2 current PT cases to get an idea on how to treat this...

http://www.ratshackforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29965

I know, but unfortunately this is the only vet for a couple of hundred miles, we are literally in the middle of nowhere here.
We really want the Cabergoline but are finding it hard to get in Canada? Looking at ordering some online but it will take a little while it seems.
Skeever has a history of an extremely sensitive tummy and UTI's. I have heard that Bromo is very hard on the tummy and can cause bleeding...
If we were to go that route, and the vet agrees, could we start him on the bromo and then change over to the Cabergoline when it arrives?
Thank you for the email address, I Will pass that on in the morning, I take it your vet is based where you live? (just checking)
I am thankful that the progress is slower, but it IS progressing so I need to take action.
Do you know of anywhere that may be able to help us get the Cabergoline, cost does not matter.
Thank you so much for your words, my husband and I are sat here hanging off of this screen...

 

[Carol Weekes]

I think the cabergoline is available in Canada, because my vet had been willing to order it, but had gone with the bromo instead for some of my PT ratties. There is no reason to NOT have him on prednisone, as long as he's on an antibiotic to counter it. Do what Lil'Spaz has suggested; have your vet contact her vet and listen to what her vet has to say. You want your little one on the pred and bromo, or the pred and cabergoline. I did read somewhere that cabergoline can carry some heart risk; best to check into that too, although some people prefer it to bromo. You're going to have to help syringe-feed your little man. I know how hard it is to go through this; been there too many times myself. All you can do is love him and keep him as comfortable and fed as possible. I hope that this vet will listen to advice from another vet and get you the meds you need for him. How frustrating for you to be so far north and not have other options. Sending healing thoughts your way.

 

[Aida]

The bleeding is a rare side effect. It recently happened to a member Dspch's rat Kona, but my girl Matilda has been on bromo and prednisolone for 6 months. She has been happy and nearly a miracle among PT rats, thanks to these meds. For some bromo works better, for others cabergoline-- it depends on the rat.

Cabergoline is harder and more expensive to get-- a couple hundred a month. I get bromo from the local pharmacy in pills, for $20/10pills. Bromocriptine has been documented to cause some upset stomach, so it is advised to just give with food. Rats will despise taking it, but they also despise taking oral dex and most medicines. It is just something you have to force to keep them alive and happy.

Do NOT stop the prednisolone, that is the only thing currently keeping your boy at all happy and not suffering. A pituitary tumor rests on the pituitary gland, around which there is a significant amount of empty space. Once it grows enough to fit or just a bit, it causes swelling around the tissues which in turn puts pressure on the brain. This is what causes the symptoms, such as motor and balance problems. Prednisolone is a drug that stops the body's reaction to this, that is stops the swelling and thus makes the symptoms go away, until the tumor gets too large and it is the tumor pressing on the brain, not just the swelling. It does nothing to stop the tumor from growing, however, that is where bromo or cab come in.

I hope that was hopeful.

 

[Joanne]

Just my two cents-
I have one of my rats on Cabergoline right now and I live out East in the Maritimes. It was easy to get - my vet just called it in to my regular pharmacy and they had it in a day or two. It is also easy to use - I put the 1/2 tab into a 1cc syringe and then suck a little water into it and let it soak. It will dissolve in about ten minutes. Easy too because of that 1 of 3 days dosing. It is about double the price of the Bromo though.
As far as steroids go, I really don't understand their reluctance to use the drug. The rat isn't going to die by using steroids, but might if they DON'T use them.
Good luck with your vet. The problem with him is not that he doesn't KNOW something; the problem is that he seems unwilling to LEARN something.

 

[Tish]

Thank you Carol and Aida for taking the time to explain.
I have read so much that sometimes I do not digest.
Both your advice is sound and I am taking steps to, tomorrow, ring our vet with this info and get the ball rolling.
Will try the Bromo until we can get the Cabergoline, encouraging that you think we can get it in Canada Carol, if my vet comes back with a No that we can't, could I maybe ask a HUGE favour and get you to check with your vet where he could source it from? That is only if tomorrow our vet says he can't get it of course.
Now for the Pred, he has Skeever at a dose of 0.2ml once a day. Skeever weighs half a kilo, or 1.15lbs (he was a little chubby before which I am thankful for)
Shall I continue with that dose, or split it in two so 0.1 twice a day? It really is attacking his lungs is the only thing, the vet said they sounded cloudy today and he coughs and sneezes so much after he has had it. He is on Baytril also, and I Have Amoxy incase of secondary infection, should I continue with that also?
Also, and I am So Sorry to keep asking questions and with this one, maybe being paranoid, but when he examined Skeevers teeth, he had him on the table and from behind, lifted his head up and back, really stretching out his neck. It looked horrific and Skeeves did not like and struggled a little, he did it again and he squeaked, why I did not speak out I have no idea, you always assume a vet knows what they're doing (Yeah Right) and I cant say I have ever seen teeth examined like it! Will it have aggravated things? As obviously his head was right back on his neck. If so would we see symptoms straight away or today if it did do something?
I am so sorry to be so needy. This place is a godsend to us and I Appreciate every last word and min of peoples time.
Thank you all so much from the bottom of my heart.

 

[Joanne]

You absolutely CAN get Cabergoline in Canada.

 

[Tish]

Just my two cents-
I have one of my rats on Cabergoline right now and I live out East in the Maritimes. It was easy to get - my vet just called it in to my regular pharmacy and they had it in a day or two. It is also easy to use - I put the 1/2 tab into a 1cc syringe and then suck a little water into it and let it soak. It will dissolve in about ten minutes. Easy too because of that 1 of 3 days dosing. It is about double the price of the Bromo though.
As far as steroids go, I really don't understand their reluctance to use the drug. The rat isn't going to die by using steroids, but might if they DON'T use them.
Good luck with your vet. The problem with him is not that he doesn't KNOW something; the problem is that he seems unwilling to LEARN something.

You Star!!! Thank you SO VERY MUCH, for that info. So you are essentially using human Cabergoline which is obviously the same and works ok right?
Wow that's a relief, and I will pass that onto my vet in the morning. And I agree with what you said about him...though a little in his defense, he knows not a lot about Rats and drugs and was worried for his lungs as they have gone downhill, he is still a Nightmare of a vet though!!!!
You have made me so happy Joanne, Bless you and Thank you.

 

[Tish]

You absolutely CAN get Cabergoline in Canada.

Can I just ask, you say you mix with water, but I have read that it becomes unstable when mixed with Aqueous solution, is this so with all forms of the drug?

 

[2Rats]

A good rat vet is hard to find ....Even some that are experienced in "exotics" ( I really don't know why they classify rats as exotics ) don't know as much as they should!
If a rattie has a PT they are terminal & there is no reason why a vet would not want to give them Pred. for the whole duration until they pass.
Yes all steroids have some side effects but in the case of a PT - that is really the least of the worries. Keeping them as comfortable and happy as possible IS.
I agree that steroids are a MUST for PT ratties. And Baytil

 

[Tish]

A good rat vet is hard to find ....Even some that are experienced in "exotics" ( I really don't know why they classify rats as exotics ) don't know as much as they should!
If a rattie has a PT they are terminal & there is no reason why a vet would not want to give them Pred. for the whole duration until they pass.
Yes all steroids have some side effects but in the case of a PT - that is really the least of the worries. Keeping them as comfortable and happy as possible IS.
I agree that steroids are a MUST for PT ratties. And Baytil

The Baytril I started today as the Doxy didnt seem to be doing it anymore. I know Pred is good, but as soon as he has it he is coughing and sneezing, but that is nothing compared to what he is going through now.
When I hear the word terminal it really hits home. I know it to be so, but still...maybe I haven't accepted yet, I am so busy fighting to get meds for him that I forget he is actually dying. ((
I think I have cried an ocean.
Thank you again so much for all your kind words.

 

[Joanne]

Can I just ask, you say you mix with water, but I have read that it becomes unstable when mixed with Aqueous solution, is this so with all forms of the drug?

You are not mixing up a solution to keep. I do not put it in water until I am ready to give her her dose. I only soak the tablet until it dissolves and then give it to her.

 

[2Rats]

Tish:

I totally get it when you say you forget he is dying.....I went through the same thing with my girl Doodles. Tomorrow will be one month since she passed from a PT..
I was rushing around getting the meds that I felt were best for her, surfing the net, wrecking my brain for anything that I thought would help. We ended up going to the vet I think 3 times. Once even for fluids. Then one day it hit me that I finally had everything possible I could have that would help keep her "comfortable" and have some good days before it was her time to go. I kinda took a "deep sigh" and told myself - ok there is nothing more that can be done & I just pray that when she does pass that I am with her. I was & it was sad & beautiful at the same time.
I was able to extend her life for about 4 months from the onset of the PT.
In her case - I would not change a single thing I did. I only used Pred , Baytril & I got her vet to give me some pain medication to administer to her when she was really bad & I felt she may be hurting.

 

[Tish]

Update.
Skeever has gone down hill so fast. Before the vet he was able to move around so much easier, pull himself up etc. Today he is walking along but with his nose to the floor, one of his eyes are leaking P v badly and from his nose.
His front legs are now starting to straighten and his little hands are curling most of the time and knuckling over.
He is eating very well though and still licking it off of my fingers though I have syringes at hand ready. 5 soaked oxbow with mayo mashed up today, plus banana and sweetcorn and egg. He can no longer eat the melon so I break it up into tiny bits and he seems to like that.
Just cleaned his eyes and nose with a cotton bud and he was trying to bite it because it was wet, so nice to see a little of his personality still there.
I am beyond frustrated as the vet didn't even bother to look anything up until today, we were there first thing with all our info on the meds but had to wait until 1.30pm before he even did anything, a full 24 hours after his appointment...
We have bomo on its way but it wont be here until thurs/fri...that's a whole week of knowing he has this with nothing but pred and baytril, which obviously isn't enough for him...
I am still not sure on the pred dose as the vet isn't interested in answering that or my amoxy question...I got him back on the amoxy today after mixing it with egg, I felt his sneezes and coughs were a little too wet for my liking.
I feel SO useless. If I could have got him on these meds at the start...
We also have the Caber on its way but that will be mon/tues...
He is sitting right back on his bum with his back feet splayed wide, not turning circles or falling over whilst walking, but like I said dragging his nose and tail on the floor and falling to the side when sat on his bum.
Is he is pain at this point? Could someone please advise if he is too far gone for these meds? I know they shrink the tumor but they take time to do that also don't they?
He had a touch of the runs but I was on it with the liquid and food and that has gone...
Weeing and pooing ok.
I feel I am floundering, Skeever is my fourth rat and my first PT. It has just done me in how quickly this all happened. This time last week he was running around being a cheeky boy storing everything in sight.
Am I being cruel at this stage?
I want to go and read others posts about it all, but I have read so much and watched so many vids that I think I am numb to it all and afraid that It will confirm that he is worse than some I have seen in the vids/pics.
Apologies for all the emotional posts yesterday, I have had some food and a little sleep today, so am a little more level headed.
Just watching him fade like this seems so cruel, he is boggling too, so I know he's in pain. I have two pain killers here but I am not sure whether to use, and I know one of them I have to be careful with with the Bomo when it finally gets here.
Also tormenting myself for the vets visit. Wish I had of stepped in when he pulled his head back.
So many thoughts.
I am dreading wed and thurs as I know he will get worse, what can I expect? Can they be too far gone to go on the meds?
Please if anyone has the time I would appreciate any answers to any of my questions, I know a lot of you too are going through it all, and some with more than one ratty with pt, we are just so isolated here and like I said I have no experience with this at all.
Thank you kindly in advance.
Tish.

 

[dspch911]

PT is horrible and the one thing you must know and prepare for is you cannot save him it is terminal you may get an extra week, a month, or six months there is no way to tell, but you will not win - PT always wins! :censored:

Yes, my Kona passed on Saturday as Aida said probably do to the bromocriptine. As I look back though I have to add we were giving him the full dose 2.5 tablet as the vet recommended, that dosing is the correct amount. However, I was advised by lizspaz to only give half the tablet and perhaps that is what I should have done. When we started the bromo Kona was already completely limp and had no control over his paws even though he had only begun showing symptoms 4 days prior. It was another (I think) 5 days before we were able to start the dex and I also think we gave this for too long and should of stopped the shots a lot sooner. Kona showed great progress with these two medications and was doing really good, but as you were advised Saturday he had what we believe was a bleeding ulcer and had to be put to sleep.

In an attempt to help him gain weight I put together a mixture of one box of baby rice cereal, 12 scoops of powdered soy formula, and 1 cup of ground oxbow in an air tight container and when needed mixed with ensure. We gave him this in a small bowl and syringe feed him.

I also must tell you since I believe I read I posting yesterday by you that you have breed your boy and are going to breed his off spring. PT is hereditary. Kona's daddy had it too so you should consider ending this line so no other rat's suffer this outcome.