theratlady
Well-Known Member
Vanessa said:
i didnt want to hijack a thread but i am curious as to what this statement means
the rats arent antibiotic resistant its the strain of bacteria.
please explain
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i didnt want to hijack a thread but i am curious as to what this statement means
the rats arent antibiotic resistant its the strain of bacteria.
Dahlas
Well-Known Member
I think that is what Vanessa meant...that the strain of bacteria, in those paticular rats, would be come resistent to the antibotics or that is the way I read it at first....reading it over just now I am not so sure.........
Fidget
Senior Member
The way I understand it is that if you treat any creature (human or otherwise) with an antibiotic and don't dose at proper intervals or quit too soon and don't kill off all the bad bacteria - then that individual can have those bacteria mutate and survive in them and can carry an immunity to the antibiotic that they were being treated with?
And maybe their progeny can carry the same immunity.
And maybe their progeny can carry the same immunity.
Cityratt
Well-Known Member
I dont understand how their progeny can pick up pm the reisitance, unless they are directly contaiminated with the Bacteria which are resistant to the ABS - but I dont see why that would have to be the direct relation to the mother rat herself - just in the same airspace and thus in contact with the affected bacteria.
In that sense any rat in the building could come in contact with the resistant strain of bacteria, if a rat sold by that breeder to another household (be it a baby or an adult) they would carry that resistant strain of bacteria with the possibiltity of passing that on to other rats in the household.
That being said, i dont know what seperates the breeders from the rescue situations to those of us who have lots of ratties at home (spreading them to our other rats).
I could be wrong, but that was my understanding of antibiotic resistance...
In that sense any rat in the building could come in contact with the resistant strain of bacteria, if a rat sold by that breeder to another household (be it a baby or an adult) they would carry that resistant strain of bacteria with the possibiltity of passing that on to other rats in the household.
That being said, i dont know what seperates the breeders from the rescue situations to those of us who have lots of ratties at home (spreading them to our other rats).
I could be wrong, but that was my understanding of antibiotic resistance...
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
My take on that is that breeders need to be more concerned about illnesses that is resistant to certain antibiotics and not the individual person. The breeder is bringing new life into this world so the breeder needs to make damn sure that her colonies are bacteria/illness free for these new lives as well as making sure each litter does not pick up a antibiotic resistant bug.
Cityratt
Well-Known Member
Gotcha Jo - more of a prevention than a dealing with it take on things.
Dahlas
Well-Known Member
:nod:
Well, I will explain what I mean myself by that statement.
Rats become antibiotic resistant due to a number of reasons including:
- rat owners not purchasing proper antibiotics from vets and obtaining them from petstores and other sources - usually antibiotics designed for fish and whatnot.
- rat owners giving antibiotics through waterbottles where the dosage is not able to be properly administered.
- rat owners not giving antibiotics for the proper time period or not obtaining another antibiotic when the current one is not working.
If I do any of those things with my rats, then it is only the rats in my home that are affected by the resistance that they could develop by the above actions. Because I don't breed rats, those resistances end in my home and are not distributed through rats who could be born with a resistance already formed due to their parents. If I abuse antibiotic treatments in that fashion, then I am not creating a new 'strain' of the bacteria, only toughening up the same strain that they all have.
Different strains of a bacteria or virus are not as common, or as rampant, as some people say. If people are introducing rats that come from distant areas where another strain might be prevalent, then they might introduce them that way, but it is not as easy as people think to spread different strains of these organisms. If strains do mutate, then it will not be a case where an antibiotic needs to be increased in dosage to be effective, it will require another antibiotic altogether. If the myco bacteria was that easy to spread different strains of, then we would have a lot of people dying from walking pneumonia - because the human strain is probably the most common and has many more instances of people contracting it and carrying it around. In addition to that, we are probably the most inclined to abuse antibiotics for it. So, we do manage to toughen up our strain in our bodies to become resistant to the antibiotics, but we aren't creating a brand new antibiotic resistant 'strain' that can be spread around to others.
Bubonic plague or tuberculosis resistance is a good example. For the strains of those bacteria that have, over an extremely long period of time, become resistant to antibiotics you cannot cure those strains of the plague/tb by giving higher dosages or concentrations of the same antibiotics given to the unresistant strains. A brand new antibiotic needs to be developed to combat those specific strains. In the past couple of decades we have started to develop more 'broad spectrum' antibiotics that have been successful in killing off more bacteria, but they are no guarantee.
I know that I am moving from bacteria to a virus, which are not cured but can have immunity developed - but a great example of that is influenza. People get the flu shot every year, not because it wears off in a year, but because every year the medical community finds different strains of it and you need to get a shot for the new strains discovered in the previous year. That is why some people will get the flu even though they get their shot every year. Once you are given the shot for a specific strain, you are immune to it and will not need a shot for that strain again, only new strains that are discovered. We are playing constant catchup with that virus, because it is probably the most virulent one that has ever existed, and that is the reason why tens of thousands still die each year from influenza. One day, we will come across a strain that cannot be combatted with vaccinations and we will be in very big trouble. Some will argue that we already have with HIV/AIDS, but I think there might be even worse to come with influenza.
One of my biggest pet peeves are people who are so adamant that you can only get chicken pox once in your life and you won't get it again - because that is a total crock. As common as that virus is, there are only a couple of strains of it in North America. Once you get one strain, and survive it, you are immune to that particular strain. However, if you are unlucky enough to come in contact with the other strain then you will get it again. I have known people to have gotten it twice in their lives because that has happened. Luckily, that virus is not as virulent as influenza is.
So, if you have a new strain of antibiotic resistant myco, you cannot treat it with the same drugs that we currently do, just with an increased dosage, but with new drugs.
As much as it freaks me out sometimes, I love researching virus' and bacteria. The bottom line is that they are all designed to do only one thing on this planet - kill. They kill the weak and leave the strong - that is all they do. They often naturally mutate, when required, to kill even more of a species when that species becomes too high in numbers. They are the most perfect organisms on earth. I think that we have become very complacent with them, and we pay the price constantly. In some places more than others. They are something that we should take far more seriously than we do.
The second part of my statement regarding resistance versus 'just too far gone' is easy to explain.
Antibiotics are a miracle, but they are not as miraculous as many people think they are. Antibiotics work to their optimum effectiveness only when the person/animal is at its healthiest and their immune system can work in tandem with the antibiotics for a full recovery. When you have an immune system, or even an individual organ, that is damaged, no amount of antibiotics will help - regardless of how effective it is in other situations.
I will use a good example of that with smokers. Smokers tend to suffer more frequently with chronic lung conditions like bronchitis and pneumonia, both of which have highly effective antibiotic treatments, because of the damage they inflict on their lungs with smoking. When they are younger, or haven't been smoking that long, and they are given an antibiotic for those conditions, they bounce back the same way that a non smoker will. However, the longer they smoke, the more severe and irreparable damage they do to their lungs, and the less effective antibiotics become. In the end, no antibiotics will help them because the lungs are just not healthy enough to recover. It has nothing to do with resistance, they could have maybe only been on antibiotics a handful of times in their lives, it is just that the lungs are too far gone and no amount of treatment will resolve it.
Rats have the same issues. They will sometimes have very weak immune systems overall, they might have been malnourished, or their parents were malnourished, they could have been kept in substandard conditions or many other factors. All those things might not reflect immediately in their overall health, but become apparent when they do contract an otherwise easily resolved with antibiotics condition that they do not respond to as they should.
Rats become antibiotic resistant due to a number of reasons including:
- rat owners not purchasing proper antibiotics from vets and obtaining them from petstores and other sources - usually antibiotics designed for fish and whatnot.
- rat owners giving antibiotics through waterbottles where the dosage is not able to be properly administered.
- rat owners not giving antibiotics for the proper time period or not obtaining another antibiotic when the current one is not working.
If I do any of those things with my rats, then it is only the rats in my home that are affected by the resistance that they could develop by the above actions. Because I don't breed rats, those resistances end in my home and are not distributed through rats who could be born with a resistance already formed due to their parents. If I abuse antibiotic treatments in that fashion, then I am not creating a new 'strain' of the bacteria, only toughening up the same strain that they all have.
Different strains of a bacteria or virus are not as common, or as rampant, as some people say. If people are introducing rats that come from distant areas where another strain might be prevalent, then they might introduce them that way, but it is not as easy as people think to spread different strains of these organisms. If strains do mutate, then it will not be a case where an antibiotic needs to be increased in dosage to be effective, it will require another antibiotic altogether. If the myco bacteria was that easy to spread different strains of, then we would have a lot of people dying from walking pneumonia - because the human strain is probably the most common and has many more instances of people contracting it and carrying it around. In addition to that, we are probably the most inclined to abuse antibiotics for it. So, we do manage to toughen up our strain in our bodies to become resistant to the antibiotics, but we aren't creating a brand new antibiotic resistant 'strain' that can be spread around to others.
Bubonic plague or tuberculosis resistance is a good example. For the strains of those bacteria that have, over an extremely long period of time, become resistant to antibiotics you cannot cure those strains of the plague/tb by giving higher dosages or concentrations of the same antibiotics given to the unresistant strains. A brand new antibiotic needs to be developed to combat those specific strains. In the past couple of decades we have started to develop more 'broad spectrum' antibiotics that have been successful in killing off more bacteria, but they are no guarantee.
I know that I am moving from bacteria to a virus, which are not cured but can have immunity developed - but a great example of that is influenza. People get the flu shot every year, not because it wears off in a year, but because every year the medical community finds different strains of it and you need to get a shot for the new strains discovered in the previous year. That is why some people will get the flu even though they get their shot every year. Once you are given the shot for a specific strain, you are immune to it and will not need a shot for that strain again, only new strains that are discovered. We are playing constant catchup with that virus, because it is probably the most virulent one that has ever existed, and that is the reason why tens of thousands still die each year from influenza. One day, we will come across a strain that cannot be combatted with vaccinations and we will be in very big trouble. Some will argue that we already have with HIV/AIDS, but I think there might be even worse to come with influenza.
One of my biggest pet peeves are people who are so adamant that you can only get chicken pox once in your life and you won't get it again - because that is a total crock. As common as that virus is, there are only a couple of strains of it in North America. Once you get one strain, and survive it, you are immune to that particular strain. However, if you are unlucky enough to come in contact with the other strain then you will get it again. I have known people to have gotten it twice in their lives because that has happened. Luckily, that virus is not as virulent as influenza is.
So, if you have a new strain of antibiotic resistant myco, you cannot treat it with the same drugs that we currently do, just with an increased dosage, but with new drugs.
As much as it freaks me out sometimes, I love researching virus' and bacteria. The bottom line is that they are all designed to do only one thing on this planet - kill. They kill the weak and leave the strong - that is all they do. They often naturally mutate, when required, to kill even more of a species when that species becomes too high in numbers. They are the most perfect organisms on earth. I think that we have become very complacent with them, and we pay the price constantly. In some places more than others. They are something that we should take far more seriously than we do.
The second part of my statement regarding resistance versus 'just too far gone' is easy to explain.
Antibiotics are a miracle, but they are not as miraculous as many people think they are. Antibiotics work to their optimum effectiveness only when the person/animal is at its healthiest and their immune system can work in tandem with the antibiotics for a full recovery. When you have an immune system, or even an individual organ, that is damaged, no amount of antibiotics will help - regardless of how effective it is in other situations.
I will use a good example of that with smokers. Smokers tend to suffer more frequently with chronic lung conditions like bronchitis and pneumonia, both of which have highly effective antibiotic treatments, because of the damage they inflict on their lungs with smoking. When they are younger, or haven't been smoking that long, and they are given an antibiotic for those conditions, they bounce back the same way that a non smoker will. However, the longer they smoke, the more severe and irreparable damage they do to their lungs, and the less effective antibiotics become. In the end, no antibiotics will help them because the lungs are just not healthy enough to recover. It has nothing to do with resistance, they could have maybe only been on antibiotics a handful of times in their lives, it is just that the lungs are too far gone and no amount of treatment will resolve it.
Rats have the same issues. They will sometimes have very weak immune systems overall, they might have been malnourished, or their parents were malnourished, they could have been kept in substandard conditions or many other factors. All those things might not reflect immediately in their overall health, but become apparent when they do contract an otherwise easily resolved with antibiotics condition that they do not respond to as they should.
theratlady
Well-Known Member
so in otherwords EVERYONE needs to use antibiotics wisely not just breeders. that goes for people too when you are given a prescription unless it makes you really sick or allergic the prescription should be finished not 1-5 pills left over. not to mention the people who want a drug regardless if its actually a virus causing the problem. we as a society have created "superbugs" by misusing antibiotics along with world travel to very forgein part of the globe that normally is in accessable.
