Ortiz's Breathing...he's gone

[lilspaz68]

One of my poor Wildling boys isn't doing too well. The Wildlings are a sad situation. The 2 boys were neutered but they are/were the most handleable. The little girl I got was not at all by anyone. I told my vet we would be doing long-range treatment on her. Then I took back in her 4 sisters and now I have 7 rats who cannot go to the vet unless they are massively ill. The other glitch is the one person who *may* be able to handle my wild rats and actually examine them is out of business until October sometime. :sad-p: So I am on my own with my agoutis.

About 2 months ago I realized my big boy wasn't so big anymore and that his breathing was rather laboured. I am ashamed to admit that my Wildlings (not being particularly handleable) don't get the same kind of attention to illness as my domestics. They dont' get weighed as often as their domestic counterparts since if I take my hands off of them when they are freaked out on the scale I chance them bolting. :roll: They don't get feel overs because even though they may be quiet for a second, they HATE hands and we have come up with a lot of tricks like "Get into the Bag" when I am taking them out or putting them back. Beni used to be friendly until I had to treat his neuter abscess, he is soo freaked out ow. Ortiz usually hid at the back most times and I never saw when it worsened.
He used to be 450 grams and today he is 359 grams..sigh
His breathing got more laboured and he started to lose even more weight. His very instinctual cagemates (a few of the more dominant girls) started to harrass him and I seriously thought they were trying to drive the sick member out of the colony before he could attract a predator. After a cagemate attack I held him and could feel his little heart just pounding and I started to think it was his heart. But my reading up told me he didnt' fit the symptoms of CHF. He has an appetite, there's no porphyrin, no signs of illness besides this breathing and the weight loss. I put him on meds for 2 weeks with absolutely NO change.

I took this video today of Ortiz. He is calm here, but when he gets stressed I can barely watch him breathe its that distressing.

http://s61.photobucket.com/albums/h75/r ... CF2862.flv

So here we are now. I have lasix and enalapril now, and when looking it up on the ratguide when I found this...

http://ratguide.com/health/cardiovascul ... opathy.php

The symptoms under Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy actually fit.

so today Ortiz got his first dose of lasix (I went low since its diagnostic), if anyone has any suggestions on dosage I am all ears since I have never used lasix (furosemide) before.

 

[jorats]

Keep us updated on any changes with the lasix. If you do see some improvement, I may just bring in my Cado and demand some Lasix from my vet.

 

[ratamataz]

Poor Ortiz. And poor you, it must be sooo sressful to have to deal with it completely on your own.
I hope his treatment works!

 

[mamarat]

Aww your poor boy, hope the meds help. :heart:

 

[Fidget]

I don't know how to help.

But I want to tell you that reading that thru I felt immense respect for you for your obvious respect of them for who they are.

I can understand you feeling abashed that something might have slipped by you that wouldn't have with a more domestic kid. But I guess that's unavoidable if you want to ensure that every day of their lives for every one of them is comfortable & happy rather than stressful. And you sure learned from Beni that what you do to help physically can have a detrimental effect emotionally with these kids.
So don't be hard on yourself! We can only do what we can to the best of abilitiesto make their lives good as possible.

So you're doing what you can for Ortiz. I sure hope you can find him the right help. It's gotta be awfully difficult for you emotionally to have to stress him out with treatment if it's his heart giving him problems...

My heart and hopes sure go out to both of you.

 

[Godmother]

Poor sweetie, he's breathing just like Rhonda did, and he's so much younger that she was.

The lasix was so helpful to her. Luckily she would take it more readily than her other meds. There is a wide range of dosages, I believe. Rhonda started with a low dose, then increased the amount and frequency for the last month of her life. Supposedly it's a safe drug, as long as the ratty is drinking enough.

Hope your little guy responds well to it.

 

[lilspaz68]

I was talking to Bella of Bella's Nest Rattery in Goosemoose Chat, who managed to get one of the other creators of The Ratguide on the phone, Karen. Karen knows me well after working together on my case histories. The lasix should've shown a result by now 20 mins to an hour, so we waited and now we are trying dexamethasone as a diagnostic. He got his dose and I will see how he is in the morning.
Poor Ortiz. What freaks me out rather than makes me happy is he will lie cuddled in my lap as I pat him UNRESTRAINED...something is definitely wrong. :shock: He's been turning to me more as his cagemates have started to frighten him. :undecided:

 

[Nickelrat]

Poor little Ortiz! It's so hard when we have no clue how to make them better!! I know I get so sick with worry and guilt when mine fall ill and no meds seem to work. :cry: I'm so sorry I have no advice to give but know that I'm thinking about you and your little Ortiz. :rose:

 

[ratamataz]

Aww, that's so sad that his cage mates are frightening him!
Perhaps if all goes well a positive side of all this is that Ortiz might be more trusting and handleable afterwards, since he is turning to you now.
Oh Ortiz, pull through for your mom! :rose:

 

[LA]

Aw hugs to both of you. And I totally agree with Fidget.

 

[jennifervb]

One of my poor Wildling boys isn't doing too well. The Wildlings are a sad situation. The 2 boys were neutered but they are/were the most handleable. The little girl I got was not at all by anyone. I told my vet we would be doing long-range treatment on her. Then I took back in her 4 sisters and now I have 7 rats who cannot go to the vet unless they are massively ill. The other glitch is the one person who *may* be able to handle my wild rats and actually examine them is out of business until October sometime. :sad-p: So I am on my own with my agoutis.

About 2 months ago I realized my big boy wasn't so big anymore and that his breathing was rather laboured. I am ashamed to admit that my Wildlings (not being particularly handleable) don't get the same kind of attention to illness as my domestics. They dont' get weighed as often as their domestic counterparts since if I take my hands off of them when they are freaked out on the scale I chance them bolting. :roll: They don't get feel overs because even though they may be quiet for a second, they HATE hands and we have come up with a lot of tricks like "Get into the Bag" when I am taking them out or putting them back. Beni used to be friendly until I had to treat his neuter abscess, he is soo freaked out ow. Ortiz usually hid at the back most times and I never saw when it worsened.
He used to be 450 grams and today he is 359 grams..sigh
His breathing got more laboured and he started to lose even more weight. His very instinctual cagemates (a few of the more dominant girls) started to harrass him and I seriously thought they were trying to drive the sick member out of the colony before he could attract a predator. After a cagemate attack I held him and could feel his little heart just pounding and I started to think it was his heart. But my reading up told me he didnt' fit the symptoms of CHF. He has an appetite, there's no porphyrin, no signs of illness besides this breathing and the weight loss. I put him on meds for 2 weeks with absolutely NO change.

I took this video today of Ortiz. He is calm here, but when he gets stressed I can barely watch him breathe its that distressing.

http://s61.photobucket.com/albums/h75/r ... CF2862.flv

So here we are now. I have lasix and enalapril now, and when looking it up on the ratguide when I found this...

http://ratguide.com/health/cardiovascul ... opathy.php

The symptoms under Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy actually fit.

so today Ortiz got his first dose of lasix (I went low since its diagnostic), if anyone has any suggestions on dosage I am all ears since I have never used lasix (furosemide) before.

Don't beat yourself up lilspaz. It is rare that "feral rats" are cared for by anyone. Your little furforms were lucky enough to find you; someone who accepts them as they are and is accepting of the fact that they are not as socialized as domestic rats are.

Chances are, your wildling boys do not want the kind of attention given to your other rats. It is not in their make-up. They know that you care for them, as much as they can let you, and you seem to have found a happy medium for all involved.

YOU are doing WONDERFULLY by your wild rats!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Melissa]

Poor little guy. How he is doing today?

 

[lilspaz68]

This is a better day for him (he has up days and down days) but the breathing is almost the same. I have learned that breathing like that (thru the ribs) is called costal breathing.

I am not sure what to do next really. :cry: I still have some irons in the fire but I am waiting for people to get back to me.

 

[Melissa]

I am not sure what to do next really. :cry: I still have some irons in the fire but I am waiting for people to get back to me.

I'm sorry I know you are doing the best you can and probably the best anyone can do (even a lot of vets)!

 

[mamarat2]

Shelagh, I'm sorry I just caught up on this thread. Was away from the comp most of this weekend.

Ortizs' breathing is about how Lou started looking the week before he started having gasping fits. Lou was the black berk that we thought it was his heart and the meds did not help (heart meds). One thing with Lou, he had been on antibiotics previously and stopped responding to them. Our ER vet said she thought he seriously had a pulmonary obstruction on that last day, she related it to be like COPD in humans. One thing she said that you can tell if they have decreased lung function is when you press on their chest "slightly" not hard, you feel it has some give, if it is very hard it indicates the lung capacity is significantly decreased and possibly tumors. We never did an xray on Lou as she was concerned he would have an anxiety attack during the xray and die (literally).

I know there are a few people that say that lung tumors are something that is not very common in rats but so far, we've had a few with these things come up.

I'm just telling you this so you know. Compare how his chest feels to his brother or one of his sisters if you can handle them or even one of the domestics. I felt Lou's chest immediately after he passed and could feel what my vet was referring too.

I seriously hope the heart meds help.

Jen

 

[lilspaz68]

I finally got a recommendation to try the high-end dose of lasix since the low end might have had such a small result that I wouldn't notice. :mrgreen:

Poor Ortiz is getting a bigger dose tonight!!!

 

[jorats]

I know there are a few people that say that lung tumors are something that is not very common in rats but so far, we've had a few with these things come up.
Jen

The people that believe pulmonary abscesses are not common definitely don't do necropsy on their rats.
Rats don't die of myco, they die of severe pneumonia and pulmonary abscesses. When I first started out with rats, every single one of our rats died of pulmonary abscesses. The lungs would be filled with masses or the mass would become hardened and would dislocate it self from the lung and fall into the abdomen. This is what prompted us start the pulse treatment with nebulizing. Since nebulizing, we don't see pulmonary abscesses anymore. I think two of our rats had it but they were so small, it was not the cause of death.

 

[lilspaz68]

I know there are a few people that say that lung tumors are something that is not very common in rats but so far, we've had a few with these things come up.
Jen

The people that believe pulmonary abscesses are not common definitely don't do necropsy on their rats.
Rats don't die of myco, they die of severe pneumonia and pulmonary abscesses. When I first started out with rats, every single one of our rats died of pulmonary abscesses. The lungs would be filled with masses or the mass would become hardened and would dislocate it self from the lung and fall into the abdomen. This is what prompted us start the pulse treatment with nebulizing. Since nebulizing, we don't see pulmonary abscesses anymore. I think two of our rats had it but they were so small, it was not the cause of death.

I would love a sticky on pulmonary abscesses since most people have never heard of them, and it totally makes sense why meds stop working and why our rats seem to have very little lung capacity left.

 

[jorats]

I had done a write up a few months back, too bad Carole went and deleted all my posts, I could just copy it from there. But I'll work on another one.

 

[mamarat2]

I know there are a few people that say that lung tumors are something that is not very common in rats but so far, we've had a few with these things come up.
Jen

The people that believe pulmonary abscesses are not common definitely don't do necropsy on their rats.
Rats don't die of myco, they die of severe pneumonia and pulmonary abscesses. When I first started out with rats, every single one of our rats died of pulmonary abscesses. The lungs would be filled with masses or the mass would become hardened and would dislocate it self from the lung and fall into the abdomen. This is what prompted us start the pulse treatment with nebulizing. Since nebulizing, we don't see pulmonary abscesses anymore. I think two of our rats had it but they were so small, it was not the cause of death.

I would love a sticky on pulmonary abscesses since most people have never heard of them, and it totally makes sense why meds stop working and why our rats seem to have very little lung capacity left.

I can see if I can get some more info from the vet about the subject. All of my kids that have had these problems have been off and on antibiotics all of their lives orally that is......The nebulizer sounds like a better idea every time we talk about this Jo. We have always treated their respiratory infections with the antibiotics orally, maybe its time to seriously consider buying a nebulizer as I feel like I'm starting to see this issue more and more with my kids as they get older. Just in the last year we've lost Trumpet, Beans, Mia and Lou to similiar patterns. Though Mia and Beans had inoperable tumors elsewhere and Beans definitely had masses in her lungs.