Neutering

[Riana]

I have had a difficult weekend with regards to my boys. It has always been a problem with my family in regards to my boys' odor, but it was only this weekend that my parents actually made the threat to get rid of them. I'm sure all of you can understand my horror to this, and I want to do everything I can to stop that from happening!

I had thought in the heat of the moment yesterday that it may be best to decrease my numbers, hoping that that would be what it takes to cut down on the odor, but I just can't do it! I can't re-home my boys, they mean the world to me, and I would sooner move out of my own house and get my own place than allow my parents to make me get rid of them. So I'm thinking that neutering would be a better option.

But I don't know too much about neutering for rats. I am not so much concerned as to the how's, but more-so the benefits that it has. I'm not troubled by aggression, I'm more focused on the benefits that it would have on their physical condition regarding hormones and the smell of their urine.

Can anyone give me some information about this? I'm really hoping for some enormous differences, here! Does neutering really help with odor in male rats? I'm not as worried about the quality of their coats, because they have nice coats, just a bit of buck-grease. But I'm really hoping for some big news with odor *crosses fingers*

 

[SQ]

My boys are neutered.
They do not have buck grease or a strong odor.

 

[Riana]

-I- personally don't find the boys have a strong odor -- I assume that every animal has an 'odor', one of their own that isn't urine, feces, or other environmental smells. So, I'm not worried about that. But do you know if there's any evidence of the actual urine smelling less? I thought I read that one time, but I'm not positive where, or if it was a reliable source.

I've read that neutered rats mark less, so I would assume that just the reduction in pee would help things. What are peoples' experiences on this subject?

 

[jorats]

I love the corn chip smell of intact males. Almost all my males are neutered now and they don't have that lovely corn chip smell anymore.
As for a marking, in some males, they have stopped marking but others are the same, no change in their behaviour.
I immediately felt a huge sense of contentment in my boys, happy little guys, but I think this needs to happen at a younger age.
I'm so sorry your family is putting you through this grief. I can't imagine being in that situation. It's truly sad that your family doesn't recognize the strong bond and love you have with your boys.

But to be honest, I don't find there's much difference in the overall smell of having a cage/colony in the house.

 

[twitch]

what bedding are you using? the size of the cage(s)? what toys do you have? what are they made of? how often do you clean the cage thoroughly (scrubbing bars, cleaning the floor and wall by the cage)? does the room that the rats are housed in have good ventalation? all these things can affect the odor a rat cage will have.

as for the boys smelling different. personally i found a HUGE difference between an adult intact male and a neutered one. there used to a certain aroma and i found myself cleaning the boy's cage more often then the females' even though i had more females. BUT that could just be my own sensitivity to it as i am allergic to buck grease and the odor it produces. after neutering i have had no problems with my allergies and the boys.

in our area though its near $100 a neuter. you have 4 boys... that can be a bit cost prohibitative if your parents are not willing to help if you don't have a job that you can dedicate that type of money to the rats. you may be able to get a discount where you have 4 that you want done but don't count on it. my first priority would be to check and make sure that everything that i can do to reduce odor has already been done. afterall, even if you are able to get them all neutered if something in your routine is promoting the smell then its still going to be there even after the surgery.

 

[Riana]

what bedding are you using? the size of the cage(s)? what toys do you have? what are they made of? how often do you clean the cage thoroughly (scrubbing bars, cleaning the floor and wall by the cage)? does the room that the rats are housed in have good ventalation? all these things can affect the odor a rat cage will have.

I like this question paragraph, so I want to answer all of them, and if there's anything I can improve on, please let me know!
What bedding are you using? -- I only have yesterday's news in the boy's two litterboxes. I have one litterbox in the bottom of the cage, and one on a level where they were particularly messy on. The one on that level has made a significant difference, really, in regards to the poo. I don't know if it's helped so much with the pee, but any little bit is a bonus, right?

The size of the cage(s)? -- They have a Marchioro ferret cage that measures 30" high x 30" long x 20" wide. Unfortunately it is galvanized, but I don't know how much of a difference that could make because I found with the powdercoated cage the bars were equally gucky with them being in it. They have three plastic levels that I have hooked on for easy removal to clean.

What toys do you have? what are they made of? -- They don't have too many toys inside the cage, really. I have a set-up of ferret tubes on the floor, a cat-tube, cardboard box, and an assortment of dog toys that they play with when they're out. But inside the cage they have their silent spinner wheel, a snap-together inn, and two huge hammocks. I want to put more toys in their cage but I'm not sure what kind are acceptable to keep inside the cage all the time, I'm worried about them being unattended with them. But with a steady paycheck coming in, I'm very excited to buy new toys, so ideas are muchly appreciated!

How often do you clean the cage thoroughly (scrubbing bars, cleaning the floor and wall by the cage)? -- Whoo boy! Here goes! Every single night I spray down their levels with water or water/vinegar solution until they are visibly clean and there is no odor that I can smell. I sweep off their hammocks of debris as much as I'm able, until they are too dirty to keep in (which is usually every three days). I sweep the bottom pan every day and wipe it down in the same way as the levels. I check the litterpans daily to make sure that they aren't too full, and I make sure they aren't very smelly (I make sure I can smell the yesterday's news smell more than any poo), they are changed approximately every three days. I wipe off the surface of the snap-together inn daily, and take it apart approximately once a week or week and a half and wash it. I try to wipe the bars down every week or two, as well as the crevice from the joining of the cage to the pan, but I have to say that isn't as diligently timed as I would like. I take the entire cage apart once a month and take it downstairs and wash it in the bathtub with hot water and vinegar or mr. clean and rinse thoroughly! As far as outside the cage, I have a fleece blanket on the table that their cage is on, and I change that every three or four days. I vacuum any poo from the floor underneath the table (which is where they like to poo when they're out) nightly. I vacuum my carpet in my bedroom once a week or so, but if yesterday's news or other debris is on my floor, I'll vacuum more frequently. As for the wall behind the cage, I have only washed that down once, so I know that has to be done. I would like to rent a carpet machine, too, because the boy's play area is carpet, and I'd like to clean that soon.

does the room that the rats are housed in have good ventalation? -- I like to think so, but really I only have one window in my room. It's located on the other end of the bedroom from the rats. Now that the nicer weather is here I try to keep it open as much as possible for as long as possible, making sure it doesn't get too cold in my room. When that isn't open I try to have the air purifier on, but that makes my room really cold really quickly, so I don't have that on as much as I like. I also have a window fan that can be turned either way, so I have had that in the open window blowing the bedroom air out to remove odor, as opposed to bringing air in.

*deep breath* Whoo. As for the neutering, I was thinking of taking them up to Fredericton to Dr. Stewart's at Islandview. Godmother says some really wonderful things about him, and the charge is around $70 I believe. I know one vet in Saint John charges $140+ for a single neuter! Who did you take your boys to?

 

[twitch]

i can't see anything that you could do more to reduce odor. other then getting rid of the carpet. but its not your house so that may not be an option.

but the vet i take my rats to is the only vet i trust in the saint john and directly surrounding area, Dr. Magowen. before he i took them to Dr. Cullen but its the same clinic. i know what you mean about prices for the neuters being higher though. there was one vet i called years ago that wanted over $300 for a neuter. with all things vet though, the vet makes up the price mostly from the top of their heads. not only for surgeries but for medicines as well. even different vets in the same clinic can charge you different prices. the other vet at that clinic charged me double my regular magowen price of a fraction of baytril. i needed the medication though so i paid it. little help it did in the end though... pneumonia absolutely sucks!

 

[jorats]

I want to add... galvanized cage = severe stink, in my opinion. I simply can't stand the smell of urine on steel and I find it's impossible to wash away.
Also, I find that urine on plastic is awful as well.

 

[twitch]

I want to add... galvanized cage = severe stink, in my opinion. I simply can't stand the smell of urine on steel and I find it's impossible to wash away.
Also, I find that urine on plastic is awful as well.

how'd i miss that!
that very well may be your problem. the galvanized wire will absorb and hold the odor. i know of nothing that will get the smell out. plastic coated smells almost as bad and the rats tend to chew it down to the galvanized wire beneath. really, rats need powder coated wire. if you can find a car detailing shop they may be able to powder coat the cage. i'm not sure if it will help once the wire has absorbed the smell though. i have heard of people painting the metal on the cage with appliance paint with success but that was to cover rust not cover odor.
geeze, i'm really sorry i missed that. :doh:

 

[Riana]

Is there anything with paint that I would have to watch out for if I were to get it powdercoated, do you know? I'm certainly willing to put the money forth if it would help! And I'm not sure what I could use for levels besides the plastic levels... Do you guys have any ideas?

 

[twitch]

hammocks for the levels. they're easy to make, easy to move and washable.

powder coating is what is on my cage under the mesh. its safe for the rats once its dry. the biggest problem is finding a car detailing place that will do it. you might be able to convince them to put it in at th end of the line with the left over paint. as for the appliance paint, i have not used that myself and have only heard about it. so i don't know. but i can't imagine they would use it if it was going to hurt their rats. in either case you have to make sure the cage is completely dry and aired out so it doesn't smell like paint before adding rats. then again, this may not help get rid of smell that is already trapped in the bars as i have never had to do this myself i don't know how effective it will be to get rid of the smell.

 

[Riana]

It's certainly a helpful suggestion though, thanks! I'll see what I can do about looking into it.

I guess there's just one thing that I'm still unclear about: does neutering change the rats urine smell in any way? I know that with some other animals the urine doesn't smell as strong once they're fixed... does it apply to rats as well? Has anyone ever had any experience in this?

 

[twitch]

i think it does but being allergic i may have just been more sensitive to it. so i guess that doesn't really help...

 

[Riana]

Every little bit helps! It gives me confidence, atleast.

 

[Godmother]

I am much less allergic to Bill since he got neutered.

I had forgotten: GALVANIZED CAGE!! That is a major issue. I agree that even a powder-coated with fine mesh can be hard to clean, but.... an FN would really help.

It's powder coated, wide spacing for EASY cleaning, doesn't accumulate crud very fast. There are sometimes FNs on kijiji, and it might be time to think about a trip down to Calais to get a cheap new FN.

 

[Riana]

As much as I'm sure a powdercoated cage would be good, I just can't justify buying yet another cage when theirs is the right size for them already :sad3: I know that's bad to say, but...

I wonder, is there a certain type of paint they use to powdercoat, or would any paint do? It obviously has to be non-toxic.

 

[twitch]

powder coating is car paint. the only other type of paint i've heard used for cages is appliance paint. you would need something that would stick to metal without peeling.

but the real issue here is if you spend that money in getting it done there is no guarantee that it will work now. the odor has already been absorbed into the bars. painting it will keep it from getting worse for sure but it may not get rid of the smell it has already. also, it will probably take a few days to a full week before you'll be able to put the rats back in while you wait for the paint to dry and the odor from the paint to blow off. where will the rats be in the meantime?

i know its hard to justify buying a new expense cage when you just did that but face it, the cage you have now is not cutting it and your parents are threatening to make you get rid of them because of it. neutering may help, but is that safe for them right now? i remember reading and hearing about your rats having to be on medications and that they aren't being very effective right now. the stress from an operation will lower the immune system and where your rats are already sick this COULD be very dangerous for them. your other option is to move out, but that costs A LOT of money and its really hard to do when you first get started and it has its whole own slue of headaches involved. staying home is the better option right now i would think. if you can find a cheap FN i really think that would be your best option. you could always try selling your current cage after it has had time to air out (which could take months).

 

[Riana]

I HAVE DECIDED!

I tried talking with my parents about my thoughts that the galvanized cage was holding the odor, and they weren't very amused with me. They stomped out my notion of getting another cage right away, saying (and I quote my mother) "The rats will be gone before another cage comes in here!" So that halted that conversation.

A couple minutes later my father was helping me move the cage to allow me to wash the walls down, and he said it may be better to switch them back to the smaller cage that I had them in before. That is the Marchioro Tommy K 82 cage, and it's powder coated. I was reluctant to lose the space of the current cage, but I'm totally willing to do that if it means that I get them back into a powder coated cage.

So, that's where I stand now. I'm going to wait and see how that cage will help before I think any more about neutering them. I think that's a good compromise, don't you all think? I'll get the dimensions of the cage shortly for all of you, but I think it's a decent sized cage for four rats, if I trick out their cage properly.

OH! That brings me to my next thread idea! "Pimp my cage"! I hope I can get some ideas from all of you as to what I can do for my boys with the cage space!

 

[SQ]

A nice powder coated cage will be good for the problem smell, the ratties and will make you happy. Strongly urge you to get a two section FN. If you can get a ride to Calais, check out www.ferret.com If you drive the cage over the border you just pay NB sales tax. Or try to get one on kijij, etc.

Putting them back into a too small cage will make the cleaning need to be done at least once a day. They will not be happy and neither will you.

The galvanized cage needs to be thrown into the garbage ... Chalk it up to a learning experience.

 

[Moon]

I am sorry if this has been covered as I have only skimmed this thread.... but I'll say it while I'm thinking it....

Diet can make a big difference in some animals.... but it sounds like the galvanized cage could be your problem.