Neutered rat behaviour

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Bronwyn

Bronwyn

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2007
Messages
2,957
Location
Guelph, ON
Hello!

So some may recall how Atticus was neutered a while ago, 30 days now (Feb 10), and I had an easy introduction between him and the girls and the four have been residing happily in the FN since Monday night. As in they went from the bathtub to the floor on one day, no flips or anything remotely normal, and into the FN the next day and short of some boxing between him and Ginny, they're wonderful together.

However! Tonight I was horrified to look up and see him not only mounting Jo (very much in heat, apparently), but completely carrying out the deed and washing himself "down there" (how technical can I be here?) between each go. Naturally this cues complete panic. I read three weeks was the recommended waiting time and I followed that. Why on earth would he not only feel the need to mount but to appear to be mating?! Dominance? Does dominance also include the...oh lord help me...thrusting a hundred times a second?

I did a search and saw Bruxxy asked the same question, only her male was only neutered two weeks prior, and all was fine. I just can't help thinking the worst. I did a Google search out of desperation for answers and someone said they can be fertile up to four weeks! Even this is short of the time Atticus was neutered so even that one (potentially unreliable) source would indicate all is fine I just don't understand why he'd feel the need to do this with no testosterone.

:panic:
 
Well, all I will say is this.

We had an Airedale that came to daycare who, even though neutered, could hump himself into some form of ejaculation.

The need to mount and hump is very deeply seeded in dogs, I suppose it can be the same in rats. I'd think that after a few heat cycles he'll realize that he's not really "doing" anything and kind of give up.
 
It's ingrained in him to perform this task especially when there's a girl in heat, pretty much begging him.
Unless something went wrong with the neuter, that boy is shooting blanks.
Speaking of dogs though... my Jax was neutered but he sure could reach full erection... by self stimulating. It was rather disturbing. :?
 
Hehe, it's really just a form of masturbation at this point. The girls do it too...hump, lick. :)

Some neutered boys lose interest in intact girls, and those desperate girlies will follow them around and they ignore them...very sad :roll:

Some others will continue to hump away but not that often.

Don't worry, I panicked because my spayed girl was going into obvious heat, found out later, some do still show the occasional heats. I almost died too. :giggle:
 
I remember my mom once called me in a panic, one of her spayed girls was presenting herself (lordosis) to an intact boy and he followed through... :giggle:
 
*wipes brow*
Wait, how can the neuter go wrong in the sense that the male is still fertile? I know I'm just a student but watching neuters, well, as long as you remember to take out both testicles it's all good.

Man, I wish you guys were awake at 4 am. I was sweating bullets just thinking the worst unable to get back to sleep, lol. I think of Jo, who is a sweet little nutball, and then fourteen Jo's running around and cue panic attack. :giggle: Anyway, thanks for the input! I'll rest easy tonight!
 
So I did some poking around on the internet and look what I found on another forum, posted today:

http://www.goosemoose.com/component/opt ... ,4052469.0

She's crazy right? This can't happen...RIGHT? I called my father and he said he removed two testicles, he didn't forget one or something idiotic like that. Why on earth would all those rat care pages say 2-3 weeks and this happened? :shock: I think I need to go read Bruxxy's post over and over again where her male (two weeks post neuter) didn't impregnant her girl.
 
Bron I regularly start intro's with my neutered boys starting at 2 weeks post neuter.

I think that either the vet did botch the job (you know vet doesn't always equal good) or a ratty miracle happened.

Read the other posts, breathe and see how incredulous people are about this "fact" okay?
 
I'm inclined to think that not all the facts are being presented in the link you posted, Bron.
"Especially if your male has a high sex drive"... Sex drive has nothing to do with fertility.
 
Three weeks after a neuter, there should be no problem.
Relax, breath ... it will be fine ....

(If by some miricle she did get pregnant, everyone that told you three weeks will have to adopt a few LOL ... don't worry, she is going to be fine :thumbup: )
 
SQ said:
(If by some miricle she did get pregnant, everyone that told you three weeks will have to adopt a few LOL ... don't worry, she is going to be fine :thumbup: )
Click to expand...

:laugh4:
I've got all names down. ;D

Thank you. :)
 
I'm still really confused though. People keep referring to the vet "botching" the neuter but no one's explained how that's possible, short of leaving in a testicle which would be nothing short of idiotic. Can anyone explain? I know vets make mistakes but I honestly don't see how this surgery could be messed up to the point the male is fertile post-surgery.
 
leaving in a testicle, just cutting the spermatic cord maybe? Removed the fat pad thinking it was the testicle? :laugh4:

Just to give you an idea of people's perspective...this girl has rats done with this vet ALL the time...he has lost many and she thought that this was perfectly normal and actually a good job. :doh:

Check out this post Bron (on possible botching)...and look at Drache's pic of her boy Henri...*shudder*

http://www.goosemoose.com/component/opt ... ,4049671.0
 
Oh my dear god.

I wish I took post-op photos of Atticus' incision, it was really well done and he definitely does not resemble Snowflake or Henri! That first one is almost like a joke. Like the vet made a random cut and said, "All done!" Those poor rats. Atticus definitely does not have testicles, lol, they're long gone. I'll get a photo tonight just to have the evidence up. ;D
 
I once asked my vet about how long after a neuter is the rat still sterile. She told me most likely one week, 2 weeks for sure, 3 weeks is you are paranoid.
But... if your little Jo has babies, I want me some!!
 
Lol that may be a safe enough statement to make Jo - seeing as I saw lil Harv tonight and the pooy boy-o aint got nothin there, so if hes firein anything its blanks :wink:

Also I must add how nice the neuter incision was post-op, nicest one ive seen to date I think (compared with my own boys, like seen-in-person) and no post-op complications

Poor Atti when he figures out he wont be a daddy :(
 
Aw thank you Anne! Your help was so much appreciated. :heart:

Here's Anne modeling the now-girly Atticus-Harvey groin!

DSC_0042-2.jpg

DSC_0041-1.jpg


It looked prettier when it was shaved but again the neuter was February 10th so the fur's back. ;)

Also, on that Goosemoose thread, someone tossed up some excerpts from sources that appeared to know what they were talking about so I feel a million times better. I love me some journals. I'll paste it here in case anyone else frets about this problem.

"The one study I was able to find on rats specifically -"Under normal circumstances, sperm leave the testes and enter a long tube called the epididymis. They travel down this tube, mature, and gain their fertilizing ability. Sperm are stored at the end of the epididymis, where they remain fertile for 42 days in the rat, then die (White 1932).

After neutering, sperm move rapidly through the epididymis (Sujarit and Pholpramool 1985). The epididymis atrophies, becomes hostile to sperm, and slowly destroys them (Arya and Vanha-Perttula 1985). Within 3-4 days after castration the sperm in the epididymis lose their mobility, lose the ability to fertilize, and die (Dyson and Orgebin-Crist 1973).

There are very few scientific studies that examine fertility after castration. So far, I have been able to locate only one such study in the literature.

Pholpramool and Sornpaisarn (1980) castrated 21 male rats. The authors found that for two days after castration, fertility in these castrated rats was normal. After the second day fertility started to drop quickly, and by the eighth day after castration all the rats in this study were sterile.

Specifically, Pholpramool and Sornpaisarn (1980) castrated 21 male rats and divided them into groups of 2-5 rats. Males from each group were then individually housed overnight with 2 females in heat on the day of castration or 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 8 days afterwards. Mating was judged by the presence of sperm in the vagina on the following morning. Males which didn't mate were given another opportunity the following night and were placed in the subsequent group.

Females were examined 10 days later for pregnancy. Male fertility was measured for each male as a percentage: the number of eggs he fertilized / the number of eggs a female ovulated x 100. Specifically, %male fertility = #implantation sites / #corpus lutea x 100. Therefore, if a male's score is 100% then he fertilized all the female's eggs. If his score is 31.5% then he fertilized a little less than a third of her available eggs."
(http://www.ratbehavior.org/Neutering.htm)


it's rare but it can happen...don't ask me why for sure though..."
 
Two of my boys, neutered last MAY were chasing and er...trying their best with little Miss B'Etor, just last night. She was putting on such a show: hopping, helicopter ears, assuming the position, naughty taunting in ultrasound...the boys couldn't resist. Her feelings probably would have been crushed if she went through all of that posing and they sat on the couch and just watched TV...er... I mean snoozed in their hammocks. I wouldn't worry too much...his boyness is pretty hard wired. Also, according to my vet, that while they are sterile in about two weeks, the effects of the hormone testosterone don't dissipate for two MONTHS, which is important if you are neutering for aggression.
 
Thank you for sharing that. :) I actually just neutered him because I have three girls and though the original plan was not to have them live together, it unfortunately is that way for now. The sweet thing was friendly from the start so the remaining testosterone effects aren't a problem. Other than scaring the living daylights out of me last night. :giggle:
 

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