My boys died ... any ideas why

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SQ

Senior Member - Vegan for the animals
Joined
Jul 21, 2007
Messages
17,208
Location
central New Brunswick Canada
Adopted out 2 young boys and an older rescue boy to a good home. They had purchased a FN which the woman promised to cover with wire. They had 2 dumbo boys that were a few weeks older than the boys they got through me.

Never heard from them and my phone messages were not returned but didn't worry as I knew they were busy and another rat owner was a friend of theirs and visited them weekly.

Finally talked to the woman on the phone. The older rescue boy had started biting.
Reclaimed the boy after owner decided that was the best course of action and noticed that the young rattie boys had not grown much. Plus they were pooping a great deal.
Godmother and I discussed this with the woman, then looked at the lab blocks she had been feeding them. (I had left lab blocks & baby cereal & told her where to get more and she had my contact info. & gave her a copy of Debbie D.'s book.) The lab blocks she had been feeding them was 22 % protein and a main ingredient was alfalfa. Gave her lab blocks and explained where to get more. She again promised to cover the FN with wire.

Dropped by to see how things were going, to take some lab blocks & tubes to the boys on Fri. The boys were dead.

She said that the black berks she had gotten from me became aggressive (they were now teens, having been born in Feb.,) so she had to divide the FN in half to separate the 2 berk brothers from the 2 dumbos. Then over the next 2 weeks she found a couple of healing gashes on the boys sides. One night she woke up to lots of fighting noise. She investigated but the ratties were ok and quieted down. The next morning she found one boy half out of the FN - head and front legs out and body twisted sideways. One of his back legs and his intestines and organs were missing. There was blood all over the cage. The 2nd boy was barely alive, gasping, one of his eyes missing and that side of his face torn up. He soon died.

A week or so later one of her children noticed that one of the dumbo boys was bleeding from his nose. When she investigated she discovered that the 2nd boy had part of his nose missing and it was scabbed over. She took him to another room to get a better look. When she returned, the first dumbo boy was dead. The next morning she found the second dumbo boy dead. She mentioned that one of the boys had been on baytril.

Any ideas on what happened?

They were unable to find any environmental changes that may have caused this.

I told her that the first boy had probably died between the bars and then his brother tried to dispose of the body. I thought that the 2nd boy may have gotten something caught in his throat and been unable to breathe ... thus clawing at his face in panic.

I know people who adopted siblings to all 4 of these boys and their rats are fine.

Anyone have any ideas?
I can only imagine how much my boys must have suffered.

I am in shock ...
 
Oh jeez... thats just awful :( The thought of something like that happening makes one feel sick to their stomach. I can't offer any advice, but I can understand the shock and feeling of distrust. It sounds as if something must have been very wrong since it wasn't an isolated case of one, but all 4. Poor boys, that is just terrible :(
 
Oh my gosh... something is definately not right there!

I'm so sorry SQ, that you've had to deal with this.
 
Wow.. I'm sorry you're having to go through this.

Alright, first of all, unless everyone was fighting with their cagemates, there's no reason why they should have all been so torn up. So, unless the berks were truly fighting with each other, there's no reasonable explanation as to why the two got so ripped up. I agree that the first berk most likely became stuck in the bars and died there. The remaining berk probably tried to dispose of the remains, but I doubt that he choked to death. I've never seen a choking rattie claw at themselves like that. I've seen them run around in a panic, trying to get away from themselves. Not to say it couldn't happen, but from what I understand rats don't choke all that often.

The same goes for the Dumbos. If the owner noticed their noses after the berks had passed, even the idea of the berks getting a nip in on their noses through the FN is gone. Did they find out what killed either of the rats? How sick was the one she put on baytril? If they were very sick beforehand, then it may have been whatever was ailing them. If they had more fighting wounds, I would say they might have internal damage, but she would have seen bite wounds on other places than their noses.

I've not heard of a bad diet causing brain damage. There are thousands of rescues over the age of 1yr who were fed Hamster foods and have no issue. There are many people who have no clue and feed their rats Hamster food their entire life, with no problems of organ failure or severe enough damage to cause a problem. They're a malnourished lot, but they survive it.

Do these people own a cat? Another small animal that could get even a foot within those bars? Have they checked for wild rats? If she was constantly finding battle wounds without a real aggressor, that would be my first guess. If a rat can get out, a rat can get in. At the very least, they could cause some damage to whatever they could reach between the bars.

Otherwise, there is no virus, bacteria, or parasite that would cause sudden death like that. Even SDA takes time to kill and there are very real symptoms that tip you off. While SDA isn't as prevalent in Canada as in the US, it does exist...

The problems with the berks has nothing to do with illness, though, or anything that you could refer to another adopter for. I honestly think it's purely environmental, something in that home that's hurting the caged rats.
 
What a horrible event. I'm so very sorry SQ.

My first thought is that she's got some wild critter running around in her house attacking her rats.
I really don't know what else it could be. :(
 
In the beginning I used a labblock with 25% protein and loads of alfalfa, the only thing happening was one who got skin-problems, noone died or got serious damaged (I know it might have done something longterm for lifespan, but nothing at all like this)
 
Thank you for your comments.

Just spoke to the woman. She said that prior to this happening, they had caught a wild mouse in the house and since then they have caught a second wild mouse in the house. She said that the mice get in when they bring in the wood in the fall.

My poor, poor baby boys ... :(
 
Aw ((((((Holly)))))) that's so terrible. What a learning lesson to all of us to watch out for other critters.

:(
 
I am so sorry - can a small mouse really kill a rat? It's so new to me, I'd think it to be the other way round?
Horrible for your little babies :cry:
 
Mice, especially wild ones, can be particularly vicious little things. If the mice were trying to take the rats' food, there's even more reason for them to have gone after the rats. Since the rats were younger, the mice had a better chance of winning than against a full grown adult. That may also explain why the older male didn't sustain any injuries, but had become aggressive.
 
I would say wild mice attack or a wild rat, since they are usually much smaller than domestics. What an awful thing to happen. :(

Definitely not disease, etc, with all 4 dying within a few weeks of each other, and even aggression takes time to escalate with rats that have lived together most of their lives, and you said the 2 pairs of boys had been separated?

Cover those FN's if you think you may have wild critters in your home or smaller rats that might get stuck.

I am soo sorry Holly (((hugs)))
 
I was very shocked to hear about this terrible tragedy...it's still hard to believe wild mice could kill a rat but I have heard that they can be nasty.
 
Just heard from someone who had been emailed by the young woman who was the owner of the mom who had the pet store surprise litter. The last time I spoke to her, she was planing to have her two girls spayed and to keep some of the baby boys.

It seems that she came home and saw two of the boys playing tug of war in their cage. Upon closer inspection she found that they object they were playing tub of war with was their mother's body. The other female had died previously from natural causes. She thinks the boys killed their mother, partially ate her, and were fighting over the body.

I assume that it is also possible that the sweet little girl died naturally and the boys were disposing of her body. I believe these rats were born last Feb.

Ideas anyone?

I phoned the woman who owned the two boys that had died to let her know that her two boys may have died from an aggression problem in this litter. (I hate pet stores!!) Both the woman and I have been soul searching and blaming ourselves over what had happened ... at least now we will be able to let ourselves off the hook.
 
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