Multiple neuters?

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Deb

Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2009
Messages
20
Location
Gotha, Fl.
I have searched multiple threads and read about neuters on this board and many others but I am still undecided. I have 4 boys that have been together with no problems. I am trying to intro a new boy. Three of my four attack him and he is now very afraid of them. They seem ok in neutral territory (just small issues) but the moment I try in my room the fur flies. I have tried many of the suggestions here but it is still not going well. My dominant always goes for the goolies. There have been a couple of scrapes but no major blood. I have one very shy boy who simply likes to hide most of the time and doesn't attack the new one. But...everytime I put the 2 of them together, the new one humps him and then runs off repeatedly. My shy one just tries to stay away from him and the others try to fight him. Sigh! I am considering neuters. It was suggested to me that I do them all at one time. Is that a good idea? Do you think it may stop my new one from trying to mount everything? He is only about 3 1/2 months and my oldest 2 are 5 1/2 months. my middle 2 are 4 1/2 months. I feel so bad for my new little Bacon. He tries to be with them but they have jumped him so many times that now he will run to me for protection.

Thanks for any advice you can give me. Deb
 
Those boys are young to be showing aggression.
When you say they jump the new guy what do they do exactly?
When going for the goolies, do they attack/cut or sniff?
 
Three of the boys are always trying to get their heads under his bottom. Bacon puts hands on their faces to hold their heads away and totally freezes. They attack even when he freezes. My dominant Coco, goes into attack mode the minute he sees him. Bacon sees him coming, screams and tries to run away but freezes when Coco gets to him. Coco immediatdely tries to flip him and goes for the tail area. Bacon refuses to be flipped. He puts up quite a battle. When he gets away he runs up my arm and buries himself in my hair. His whole body jerks every few seconds until he calms down. Coco has bitten him on the underside of the tail and on the scrotum. Not bad bites, very little bleeding. But...Bacon keeps mounting and pumping my shy Bubbles. Though three boys attack him Coco is the most vicious and looks for him whenever out of his cage.
 
From what you are describing... there is no aggression there yet. These boys are being very normal. You have two wannabe alphas: coco and bacon. If Bacon was truly scared, he would not dream of mounting Bubbles. But he does and this is a sign of dominance.
The alpha must flip the new guy to show him who's boss. He then will smell/lick at his privates to get to know him better. (age, gender...) The new guy resists because he doesn't want to submit yet, not before he knows who they are.

Have you done a week of neutral intros? They should be an hour long the intros, on neutral ground every day for a week. Has this been done? Do they live beside each other?
 
I have done several neutral intros. The boys don't mess too much with Bacon while in neutral territory. They are too concerned with their surroundings. They will all ignore treats and food when Bacon is with them. If they can find a place to hide they do so but will chase Bacon out. They have been living side by side for three weeks now and have explored each others cages several times. I also swap towels and blankets between cages. When Bacon is caged(and the others are roaming) they will go to his cage and sniff noses with him constantly. Then climb the cage and try to get in. There was less trouble at the beginning. It is just getting worse. My brain says let them work it out but my heart says protect little Bacon from harm!!
 
I think you are right... you are a little too over protected with Bacon. Have you done familiar ground intros? Do intros where the boys usually have out time.
 
And for intros to truly take effect they often have to be done daily, if you are not doing that already.

Sometimes intros take months for you to have a completely happy colony... don't give up!
 
Thank you for the advice. My neutral intros have not been daily. More like every other day. I tried familiar areas after the first three neutrals. Familiar ground intros is where the serious trouble starts. I think I will back up and do only neutrals everyday for a week like suggested and after that try familiar again. Should neutral territory be different each time? I am running out of places! Should I put nothing in the area except yummy food so there is no place to hide? Bubbles will absolutely freak out if he has no where to go. Should I put all the boys together or try one or two at a time?
 
My boys never go down stairs except for intros. I put up the Martins playpen in the living room and put in toys and hidey boxes. I have also tried the bathroom floor but they were so frightened two of them literally clawed there way up my bare legs :roll: ouch! So it is back downstairs to their pen.

Thanks again
 
Pick one neutral spot, that can be your bed, the table, the bathtub, anywhere where no rats have ever been. Do it there everyday for about an hour. No hidey holes! The minute you add something like that, they can claim it and so territorial aggression can develop. Bubbles will get scared to start.
Scared rats is what you want! When rats are scared, they turn to each other for comfort and you want Bacon in there so they will feel comfort near him too. All rats should be there when doing intros.
 
And something to eat that they can't run away with. Having to sit next to eachother to chow down can be a good bonding experience.
 
Very well. Tomorrow it will be a new spot, a bowl of baby oatmeal, no hidey spots, a good hour or so.....and I will try my best not to jump in and save my Bacon!!!! :thumbup:

I would love to make this work without neuters but I have put a fund aside for just that purpose.
 
Well, who can blame you...everyone should save their bacon. :giggle:
Have a towel ready and if you feel it's getting too serious, throw it on them. Distracting them is not a bad idea.
 
Ok....I set up the bathroom today. Put towels down, added peas, carrots and oatmeal. Brought in all the boys. There is a 5 inch lip you step over to go into the shower. They had the floor and shower to explore. All went well for an hour while they looked around and ate a little. I stepped in occasionally to pet them and talk to them but did not stay the whole time. I was right around the corner checking on them constantly. After an hour I was standing by the door which I had barricaded when Coco decides to jump it. Right into my hands. I give him belly kisses and set him back in the bathroom. He was not pleased and runs to the lip of the shower where Bacon is. He jumps up and Bacon jumps down. In a split second, Coco leaps off the lip onto Bacon's back. Bacon screams gets away and starts running towards me at the barricade. Coco launches himself into the air onto Bacon again. All four of Coco's feet are in the air. He looked like a flying squirrel, I kid you not! He leapt and landed on Bacon four times before Bacon made it to the barricade with no where left to go. Coco then kicked his butt. Coco backed away about two inches while Bacon froze with one little, pitiful paw held out in front of him. Coco eyed him then backed a little futher away and started to groom himself. Then he would walk towards Bacon, glare at him then walk away never going more then a foot in any direction. Biscuit (Coco's brother) came over to sniff Bacon (who was still frozen) a couple of times but left him alone. After ten minutes of watching Bacon stand stiff and frozen I had had enough and put them all back in their cages. There was no blood or injuries except for my stress level! I have never seen a rat launch into the air like that. Four times in like ten seconds. I so wish I had used the video camera. Does that sound like normal dominant behavior? There was no pinning, just leaping and attacking.
 
I wish you had a video camera too, that must have been some sight to see.
When you say attack... is it jumping on Bacon or anything else happening? For me an attack is fur flying, rat screaming blood pouring, bites and cuts and such.
Bacon needs to submit to Coco...when that happens, all will be well in rattie land. I would continue with the intros. :nod:
 
It was a sight to see. I just stood there in shock. It was almost funny watching Coco fly across the bathroom. By attack....it is hard to tell. It all happens so fast. They are rolling around. Coco looks to be trying to bite Bacon anywhere on the underside. Chest, belly, goolies. Bacon is trying to push Coco's head away from him with his paws. Bacon is always on his back feet with paws out and Coco is on all four feet trying to get his head under Bacon. Bacon seems to not want to be flipped though I did see him go up to Coco a couple of times the first hour and put head under Coco's chin. I literally see every muscle in Bacon's body tense when Coco comes near him. Bacon just goes still and stiff until Coco moves on. I have not seen fur flying, blood, or scatches on either boy. Coco is not only older but also bigger. Bacon doesn't stand a chance against him but so far Coco has not hurt him (no blood) that I can tell. I will put them back in the bathroom again tomorrow. I have a feeling the fights will start sooner then today.
 
In aggressive cases, fighting with damage usually happens within the first 15 minutes of being together and usually the first intro or two. So far, since you have not found any gashes or bites, I'd say it's not going so bad.
When a rat puts his head under the other, he's demanding respect and grooming. That's usually the alpha that will do this. The fact that Bacon tried it with Coco can be why Coco knows he must really show this boy that he needs to respect him as alpha.
 
LOL, what a fright for you! The fact that it took that long to happen though, is good... maybe everyone was just getting tired and grumpy.
 

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