Maude! Lethargic, cool... What's going on?

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Cait

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2007
Messages
3,510
Location
Pasadena, CA
Hey all, John's girl Maude is not doing so hot! This is the same one I thought looked "thick". We went to feed them this morning and she was just kind of "there" as Harlow and Iris climbed over us and wanted attention. Since the boys were having out time as they normally do the girls had to wait until about an hour ago until they could come out... When my sister got home and could keep an eye on the boys while we were downstairs with the girls. Went to take them out, and Maude seemed very lethargic, she wasn't moving, not interested in the oatmeal we brought as a treat, and when I touched her to my lips she was cool (not cold, but cool). She seemed dull eyed as well.

What on earth! I took her to my vet right away and although he couldn't find anything wrong (not even a URI, nothing) he sent me home with not much to go on besides to keep her warm and hydrated and hope she perks up.

Now I've been holding her and she keeps getting cooler! I syringed her some water/pediatlyte mixture and as we speak John is off getting some ensure and more pedialyte.

She's been perfectly fine ever since they got here Saturday evening, and before they came here, until this! Nothing is wrong with the other two girls; they're playing and eating and just having a grand old time.

The only time I've seen this happen like this was with Denver, a mouse I had who was hypoglycemic. What are the odds this is what this is? Albiet Denver always perked and returned to normal within an hour, maybe two, with sitting on a hot water bottlem hunching close to her so she can get some of my body heat, and getting some sugary substance into her. It's been about 15-20 minutes I've been sitting with her with the hot water bottle, some fleece and the pedialyte, and if anything she's getting worse.

Help? Advice? Do I ring back the vet and demand some sort of meds? Anyone have this happen?
 
Oh Cait.....I am so sorry....wonder what happened?
That is the thing that bothered me the most about owning rats. How fast they can go downhill and die.......A couple of my first batch of girls died very quickly without much warning.....one even after a vet visit like your girl......
I am very sorry.
 
It's scary and makes no sense whatsoever. I called back the vet and asked him if he'd take her body and do an autopsy, and he agreed. He didn't sound too shocked that I called back to tell him she had died, or so soon. Which makes me think he knew she was going... If that was the case I'd rather have had her PTS because I hate, just HATE those last moments. They aren't peaceful and they aren't all bubbles and clouds. If I had known she was going to die within the hour I would have put her out of her pain faster. I'm thankful John wasn't home, even though I know he would have liked to have spent her last moments with him, I'm not sure he could have handled it. I can barely handle it, and I've seen it too many times. He's never had something die in his hands, and I'm sort of glad he was spared of that.

I showered and changed and now I'm about to go bleach every hard surface I can get my hands on just in case.
 
I'm so sorry you lost her. It can be hard to know just by looking at an animal with no diagnostics how far gone they are. I know how hard it is, but you did the best you could with the information you had available to you. You don't want to give up too soon.

I'm not on here a lot, so I'm not sure how experienced your vet is? My vet is usually able to let me know when my little guys are at the end, or will pass within a few days. She's pretty honest with me about what she's seeing. We've never been wrong I don't think, the autopsies always support our decision to PTS (if that makes sense).

The only time I've seen this happen like this was with Denver, a mouse I had who was hypoglycemic. What are the odds this is what this is?

I found this comment very interesting. One of our rescue rats was put to sleep recently because he was lethargic, unable to eat, etc. and on autopsy we discovered that he had a pancreatic tumour.

My vet said that the symptoms of this in dogs are very similar to hypoglycemia. She's never seen it in a rat, but then so few people do autopsies on their rats so who knows how many have had them.

I'm very glad to hear you're having an autopsy done. Please post the results when you're able to.
 
Thanks for your kind words, you guys. My sister took her body off to the vet, and I made sure to phone him and tell him we want her remains when he's done. I thought he was very experienced until I found out he didn't know that rats could get megacolon not too long ago. Sadly, he's the best around here for small animals/exotics. He is very eager to learn, and that's good, but that doesn't help when I need answers STAT and not later after he's looked it up/asked someone else. I'm researching the university here (KU) to see if they would be of more help in the future. For routine things (abcesses, getting Baytril, and such) he's still the one I'd go to.

Oh my... I had no idea pancreatic tumors had the same symptoms as hypoglycemia... That's interesting. I'll phone the vet again and suggest it, but I'm sure if that was the case he'd find it in the autopsy; it'd have to be somewhat obvious, you'd think. My only thing about the tumor is that she was young, not even 3 months old. It's possible, though.

I'll post the results when I get them. How long does it normally take, do you know?
 
I am so sorry that you lost your dear little Maude like that. We are all still so in the dark about many illnesses that rats can get.

The only time that I ever found a rat cool and lethargic the problem turned out to be a bladder infection that was causing her to lose blood. I had come home to find little Charlene cool, with pale feet, lying lethargic on the bottom level. I could see drops of reddish stuff around the cage, but could not find any wound. I was lucky that my vet was still open and he saw her right away.

We were lucky that she peed on the examination table and he realized right away what was going on. I gave her Zithromax (she was too young for Baytril) and she made a quick recovery. Within a day both of her sisters were in the same boat; they also recovered.
 
Is your vet sending tissue samples away for histology Cait? It usually takes about a week to get results in my experience.

We did a basic post-mortem on Ernie with no histology done and my vet found his tumour. She said it was very small, smaller than a pea, but of course in a rat that's huge in relation to the size of the organ.
 
Oh Cait, I'm so sorry! :(

That was the most common way my past rats went, just really really fast, maybe a few hours of notice.
 
John came back with the now pointless Ensure and pedialyte, and he was just devastated. Wouldn't even talk to me for a good half hour. :/ I feel horrible... These are his first rats, and he has lost two already. (Maude the first and now this Maude). He doesn't have much luck with animals, though through no fault of his own. For some reason they just... I don't know, fail to thrive or whatever.

Godmother, what did the wee look like? She did piddle on me while I was cuddling her, but it was just normal pee... No abnormal smell to it, no discoloration, no blood... :/

Alice, I have absolutely no clue what a histology is, or if he is doing one... When the office opens tomorrow I will call; he said he'd get to her this evening (staying after hours) or tomorrow morning and give me a ring before the office closes for the weekend with some sort of news, so I'll try to get to him before he does anything.
 
Was Maude dehydrated, and did he give her any SubQ for that if she was? The "keep her hydrated" part makes me wonder if she was showing signs of dehydration. Did he give her any medications in house when you had her in there?

Was there anything else wrong with Maude while she was sick, other than being cool to the touch? Was her breathing very shallow or rapid? Was she having any mobility problems other than just not being interested?

I am soo very sorry for you and John that you've lost little Maude 2. Hopefully the autopsy will help you all find out what happened.
 
I'm so sorry Cait! What a horrible thing to have to witness! :tearful:

I feel for John too. Give the man a hug for me. :hugs:

John needs to understand that small animal lives are very fragile. I have found that very few vets really know as much as they should about rats so I am extremely grateful to have two exotic animal specialists who adore rats and make every effort to learn all they can about them. It sounds as if your vet is similar. :)

I seriously doubt that it was anything you or John were doing wrong with Maude. Rats are more frail than larger animals, but out of the list of pocket pets they are probably the most resilient. Chances are high that Maude had a tumor in an area which would make it impossible to see. Rats try to maintain as normal a life as possible when dealing with illness or injury so they are not ones to whimper and squeak unless it is absolutely necessary.

Thank God she was with you when she died. I feel that dying in the arms of a ratmom/ratdad is the finest way for a loved one to go. :heart:

Hang in there Cait. You and John are fabulous rat parents. Don't lose faith in your ability to care for your four footers. We have all suffered similar circumstances with our babies and we know how much it hurts. Maude's decline had nothing to do with your ability to care for her :hugs:

You and John can both be sure that your pictures are everywhere on the cloud that Maude now calls home... no doubt sharing stories with Maude I.

Have faith in yourselves in the same way we have faith in you. You and John deserve nothing less. :rose:
 
javakittie said:
Was Maude dehydrated, and did he give her any SubQ for that if she was? The "keep her hydrated" part makes me wonder if she was showing signs of dehydration. Did he give her any medications in house when you had her in there?

Was there anything else wrong with Maude while she was sick, other than being cool to the touch? Was her breathing very shallow or rapid? Was she having any mobility problems other than just not being interested?

I am soo very sorry for you and John that you've lost little Maude 2. Hopefully the autopsy will help you all find out what happened.
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He said that she wasn't dehydrated but because she started not drinking to keep syringing fluids like I had been. Would that mean whatever happened was sudden, since I know rats dehydrate pretty quickly, right? He didn't give her any meds at all, because he couldn't see anything wrong with her.

Her breathing grew more shallow as the time passed, but I believe that to be because she was dying. She *could* walk, she just wouldn't...

The vet hasn't called back, but I asked about a histology, and he said if the autopsy didn't show him what he wanted he'd do the histology.

Thank you for an explanation on that, Shelagh! I had no clue, and had to talk to the vet like I knew what it was. :/

Thank you, Linda, and Jen, for your very kind words... Jen, I let John read your post, and he felt a little better. I had to review every rat death I've had with him so he could see that sometimes it's just sudden, and there's nothing anyone could have done. I reminded him of Mikey, and he sobered up a little. He still feels awful but isn't as down. It'll take him a little longer, but he'll be ok. He gets so shaken whenever something dies (which is completely understandable! I know how he feels) but he usually bounces back.
 
I am glad that John is beginning to feel a little better. It seems as if we all feel exaggerated guilt when one of our rats dies, but he took it harder than most. And you guys are wonderful rat parents. Maude2 had a great life with you, even though it was cut way too short.

It is definitely the hardest part of having pet rats.

You asked about whether I noticed anything with the urine when my three sisters got cool and lethargic. I hadn't noticed it at the vet's because the examination table is coloured. But the vet noticed right away. At home I had seen little spots of pale red in the cage. It wasn't thick enough to look like normal blood, it didn't look like porphyrin, but I had no idea that it was bloody urine. Thinking that it was blood, I was frantically examining the ratty looking for a wound.

I hope that you guys can take comfort in the companionship of your other ratties to help you recover from the loss of Maude2. She was a sweet girl.
 

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