Long time arguing - Updated 12/01-12

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MissGuardian

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2010
Messages
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Location
Norway
I don´t quite know how to write this..
But Nirvana and Balder still argues.. They have since I got him at 5 ish weeks..
They had a break in between, but they chase eachother pretty much every day.
I do not know who starts it.. It´s no bloodshed, but it´s more than just playing too. Including puffyness and stuff like that.

The vet said neutering could help, would that be true no matter who starts? Both of them gets along just fine with Stefan.
I know it´s probably not as bad since nobody bleeds, but it´s very unsettling for me, and I have no experience what so ever with this.
Splitting them is not an option, unless I´d rehome Balder and I´d strongly prefer not to do that.. Another rat is not an option, since Balder will be my last own rats(planning on "loaning" a rat to keep him company when the rest is gone). I´m quitting rats after him.

I can afford the neuter(or implant - don´t remember the name of it), but I´d rather not if it´s no necessary(neutering isn´t that common over here).
Or could it get worse if I neuter him? I also have to add that Nirvana has not been around intact males before. I don´t know it that matters?

ETA: Nirvana was alpha. I don´t know who is now.


Update January 12th
The hormone chip seems to have done the trick. They hardly ever argue now, and not nearly to the same extent.
He still sleeps a fair bit alone, but as far as I can tell, he wants it that way. Thank you for any advice!
 
This is what I thought reading your message - to me, it looks like they keep challenging for alpha position. Unless one of them is around 8 months old and then I would throw hormones into the suspects list...
 
Are they in a big enough cage?
If there's no bloodshed, then it's not necessary to neuter. Neutering could help a great deal if you neuter the right one. But it's expensive. It really is bothersome when they get into scuffles but it's normal in males and will continue for quite some time. It's like normal family colonies. One minute we all get along, the next we are fighting.
If you can find the one that starts it, you could try doing a time out cage.
 
Unepuce said:
This is what I thought reading your message - to me, it looks like they keep challenging for alpha position. Unless one of them is around 8 months old and then I would throw hormones into the suspects list...
Click to expand...
Balder is 7-8 months old.
 
jorats said:
Are they in a big enough cage?
If there's no bloodshed, then it's not necessary to neuter. Neutering could help a great deal if you neuter the right one. But it's expensive. It really is bothersome when they get into scuffles but it's normal in males and will continue for quite some time. It's like normal family colonies. One minute we all get along, the next we are fighting.
If you can find the one that starts it, you could try doing a time out cage.
Click to expand...
The three of them are in a cage pretty much identical to a DCN - possibly slightly bigger, so they should have enough room..
Nirvana is spayed. I could understand it if it was two males, but it´s a male and a female.
So neutering the right one is pretty difficult, since there are only one that can be neutered :giggle:
Could neutering him make it any worse?
 
:giggle: I see... Then try and notice if he's the instigator. If confirmed, neuter would definitely help IMO. But as Jo says, every group has their good and bad days. Still... I saw sooooooooo much improvement in my Ratosaurus after his neuter (he was estimated to be 8 months old when I took him in) that I just swear by it now!
 
Unepuce said:
:giggle: I see... Then try and notice if he's the instigator. If confirmed, neuter would definitely help IMO. But as Jo says, every group has their good and bad days. Still... I saw sooooooooo much improvement in my Ratosaurus after his neuter (he was estimated to be 8 months old when I took him in) that I just swear by it now!
Click to expand...

Everybody argues.. But it´s gotten a bit worse in the last months.. Both in frequency and in puffyness.. It looks to me(I´m not very good in ratty language, and they often starts under the bed and such) that they both start(or Balder does something to piss Nirvana off.. I don´t know).. When Balder was younger, it was usually just chasing and nirvana was a bit puffy.. Then they were done for a few days/weeks/a month.. Now they are both puffy, and its usually everyday..

I´ve tried to get it on camera, but so far it´s proved impossible..
 
Have you noticed any humping? My bet would be it's the female starting it :giggle: but that's just personal experience talking. I've had a few PITA girls.
 
smilez_n_hugs said:
Have you noticed any humping? My bet would be it's the female starting it :giggle: but that's just personal experience talking. I've had a few PITA girls.
Click to expand...
No I havent actually. Just grooming, flipping etc
 
Oooh, I keep forgetting there' s spayed girl in your group.
Ok so there's Nirvana the spayed girl, Balder and Stefan? Stefan is neutered? She gets along fine with him? How is Balder and Stefan?
In all my years and the over 100 neuters our rats have had here, not once did it go bad. All of them 100% became total sweethearts.
BUT! That will only work if Balder is the problem child. If he's not the instigator, if it's Nirvana all along, then you are right back to square one.
 
jorats said:
Oooh, I keep forgetting there' s spayed girl in your group.
Ok so there's Nirvana the spayed girl, Balder and Stefan? Stefan is neutered? She gets along fine with him? How is Balder and Stefan?
In all my years and the over 100 neuters our rats have had here, not once did it go bad. All of them 100% became total sweethearts.
BUT! That will only work if Balder is the problem child. If he's not the instigator, if it's Nirvana all along, then you are right back to square one.
Click to expand...
Yes that's correct. Stefan is neutered, and gets along with everybody. Including balder. If he gets too annoying, stefan either flips him over and grooms him, or just walk away.

But you don't think it can get worse? The only other option with doing anything, is to rehome balder.. So I need to try.
 
If Nirvana is the instigator, I guess they both are still battling for alpha, and things might calm down in a few months, when Balder's hormones settle down a bit. But if Balder is the instigator, and his hormones are just starting to fool him around, I'm afraid things might be getting worst before they get better... Looks like you need to figure out who's provoking who before making a decision...
 
Unepuce said:
If Nirvana is the instigator, I guess they both are still battling for alpha, and things might calm down in a few months, when Balder's hormones settle down a bit. But if Balder is the instigator, and his hormones are just starting to fool him around, I'm afraid things might be getting worst before they get better... Looks like you need to figure out who's provoking who before making a decision...
Click to expand...
I've got no clue who starts now.. But I think Balder started wheen he was smaller..
 
Is it really that bad that you need to intervene? I would try a time out cage. Rehoming Balder should not be an option. We will make work.
 
my boys are being buggers. I had 4 that were being so horrible to the other 11 in their group i had to put them apart at night or when I am not home. I let them eat in the cage together, I let them run around together but the second the boys start being bully in the group, I put the mean ones up for a bit. Then i bring them out and try again. I have 2 of my four boys living with the group again peacefully, one well he needs a neuter lol.

I look for the wet sides, the puffy boy, and who the rats are scared of to see who my new problem child is. sometimes it is hard to tell who is the problem. Tart was getting beat up by them all. He would scream and freak out with any rat that came near him. I had him neutered, he now lays on his back and lets them groom him, he even seeks it out. He no longer screams which means he no longer makes the othere rats feel like they need to put him in line.
 
I am leaning more and more to try neutering. As far as I´m concerned, I know Nirvana has gotten along really well with my other two neutered boys, and I can´t see how it can make things worse.
 
Update January 12th
The hormone chip seems to have done the trick. They hardly ever argue now, and not nearly to the same extent.
He still sleeps a fair bit alone, but as far as I can tell, he wants it that way. Thank you for any advice!
 

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