Kelley's in bad shape. What should I do?

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Fidget

Fidget

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2007
Messages
3,340
Location
Victoria BC
Kelley took sick friday evening, weak and walking with a lean and some periodic noisiness. I started baytil.
Saturday morning I woke to her making awful breathing noises, put her on bed and she was walking with her whole body on an angle and very unstable. Started erythromycin with baytril and I put her in headboard box and stayed with her. She'd frequently pull herself out onto the bed, and managed to get around tho not standing up, as the day wore on she stayed more in the box with short periods of 'running' or flailing or pulling herself bedhind the hideyhouse before lying down again. Her breathing was almost consistently noisy thruout day. I also used my inhaler and steaming thruout the day. By noon she'd quit eating, by supper quit drinking. I began giving her ensure by syringe.
Sunday - I stayed with her all day again with her in the headboard box. She just lay quiet most of day, mostly as if sleeping but with open eyes. Very little thrashing or trying to move around unless I brought her on bed. Her breathing is much quieter. It got progessively harder to get enough ensure in as it would just come out unless I gave it a drop at a time. Gave her some prednisolone at dinner (it's very outdated which is why I was waiting to get her to vet to get more) .
Monday - took her to vet at 11:00. She's much like she was yesterday. Vet said that she has deep inner ear infection and meningitis along with her respiratory problem and her feet flailing is seizures and feels she should be PTS. I told her she's fought all weekend, couldn't she improve with the antibiotics and giving her prednisolone? Vet said prednisone will just weaken her immune system and she'es so sick already and chances of recovery are so low it would be just putting her thru more unneccessary suffering..

She wanted to give her the needle but I said I'd bring her home and help her over myself. But now I'm home and agonizing, should I have got more baytril & prednisone and gave her a chance for another couple days because she's fought so hard? or am I just hurting her more for nothing and owe it to her to let her fight be over?
If only I believed in my vet, but I don't so I don't know what is right for Kelley.
Any opinions from more level-headed people who aren't blinded by being here going thru this with her and as tired and heart-sick as I am right now? Please?
 
If your vet is correct about the diagnosis of meningitis I'm sorry to say but putting her to sleep may be the answer. I had a rabbit die from meningitis a few years ago and it was not pretty. I regret to this day that I forced him to stay for as long as I did.

Poor dear little Kelley. I'm very sorry Fidget. :sad3:
 
Awww, Fidget... poor Kelley....

I have no advice, but it sounds like Kelley's health has deteriorated very quickly.
 
What are the symptoms for meningitis? I would try meds in case it is just an ear infection. Give her at least a couple of days to see. I'm so sorry Fidget.
 
I am so sorry. What an awful dilemma. I don't know anything about meningitis, but I recall that others on this forum have had their vets prescribe Chlorpalm for internal infections. It's tough that your ratty had to wait til Monday for an appt (we are in the same boat here, unless a rat-savvy vet happens to be on call), and it sounds as though her condition has deteriorated and not gotten better.

If she does not improve soon you may have little choice but to have her pts, especially if she goes into respiratory distress. But if her breathing is not laboured and if she doesn't seem to be in pain, and if you can get fluids into her, maybe you could try antibiotics a bit longer.

I wish you well in coping with this difficult decision.
 
Thankyou all. I appreciate having your experience to consider in this, it's a lifeline.
Kelley seemed to make a little decision herself, she got very active and tried to climb out of the box so I took her back to the vet for subQ fluids & more meds. I'll see if she's rallying or passing tonight.
Gotta go feed us all, figure out who gets what meds now (had Fidget into vet too this morning, she's ok, just a skin condition & bumblefoot), do Fidgets feets & skin & not take my eyes of Kelley while I'm at it all.
I'll let you know how it goes. Thankyou.
 
I'm so sorry Fidget....It's a really tough situation for animal lovers. If you wait too long and they are suffering, you feel badly. If you went with your vet's advice right away, you may regret it. Part of having a pet is that YOU know them and their needs much more than anyone else, and they have entrusted you with this decision ultimately. I'm happy to hear that she seems to be fighting. You just have to do what your heart tells you to do.
 
Fidget, is this the non rat savvy vet?
From the symptoms, I'd say either inner ear infection or PT. PT can also cause symptoms that seem like severe URI.
I'm glad she's feeling better!!!
 
Thankyou all, I sure appreciate your input, it's pretty scary & lonely feeling here.

Kelley's still pretty much laid out flat and still, except for moving her back legs. She does it all the time, mostly the one in the air (she's always lying on her left side), sometimes both, and sometimes - especially when she's sleeping - she will start paddling with both of them. And she has periods of agitation when she starts flipping about, she got quite agitated (or excited) when Sumone & January were near her last night. And last night she was doing crocodile death-rolls when I was trying to syringe-feed.

Her worst problem right now is getting ensure in. I believe she's having trouble with swallowing, she seems to choke if I give too much and most comes out her mouth, I can only put in about .05 cc at one push and she will move her mouth around and keep some in. I give her some water after ensure just to clear her mouth, but as she won't take in enough anything I'm just giving ensure otherwise.

Her breathing is a lot quieter, tho still noisy sometimes. But it's calm and normal to watch.

It could be a really bad inner ear infection I guess, but would that cause her to go from tipsy one evening to not even able to walk by about noon the next day? And keep her laying on her side all this time? Sunday & monday have mostly been just lying on her left side. And I would think being on antibiotics since friday she's be getting back on her feet some rather than getting less mobile?

I don't think her moving her back leg is seizures like the vet suggested. Also when she's moving the back leg or legs the rest of her body is still, and if she were seizuring wouldn't you see some sign of that in her eyes when she's doing it?

I'm thinking PT. Because it advanced so quick, and because of the one-directional thing - when she's pulled herself about it's always counterclockwise, her croc deathrolls are always counterclockwise, and she can't lay on her right side, she immediately rolls over (even the vet stated that it was hard to get the sub-q fluids in because she couldn't be anywhere but on her left side.

Far as the vets suggestion of meningitis I don't know anything about it, but I thing the vet is guessing (badly), I don't believe she even knows what PT is. When I took her in the first time I told her I suspect inner ear infection or PT and needed prednisone. (This is the same vet that gave a kid baytril & sent her home even tho she was head-butting. Jo pointed me to a PT page when I got home and it was obvious that was what she had, it was confirmed as she worsened)

I don't know if she'll make it, or even get any better before she goes. I'm just hoping the prednisone (actually vet gave me Medrol instead) starts allowing her to eat better soon. I'm trying to feed her every couple hours and it takes 20-25 minutes each time just to put 2 cc's in and some comes out so I know she's not getting what she should but I can't do any better unless she is able to swallow better.

I still don't know if I'm doing the right thing but I don't think it would have been right to put her down without giving the antibiotics & anti-inflamatory a chance.
Any ideas?
 
You are doing the best you can Fidget. As for eating, I've noticed in mine that they don't need to eat all that much, they don't really care to either. So whatever you can is what counts.
As for the leg movement, all my old guys do this.
 
Aww poor you, poor Kelley. Don't feed her too often, and make sure when it's close to meds time your girl is hungry. I find it easier for them then to take the meds.
 
It's obvious that Kelley won't be getting back on her feet : :cry3: and it's so unfair, I promised her all weekend if she held on til the meds kicked in and we saw the vet she'd be fine. She did that - the little trooper - and it's not fixable.

But she had a great day yesterday! She was acting and eating like a happy hungry newborn kid with the mouth opening wide every time her mouth was empty and even reaching out and guiding the syringe in. She could only handle about .05 cc's or so at a squirt and 'mouth' it til it's gone but she willingly took so much at every feeding (5 cc's at a time by her own opening her mouth and grabbing for more) that I was able to go to 4 hr feedings intead of 2 hrs last night!
She bruxed & boggled after feedings and being held and when I talked to her. She even was acting quite playful (hard to describe but a mom knows)

She is definitely not in pain. Frustrated for sure the few times when she tries to get up and is unsuccessful :( but she is pretty much content to eat & cuddle at feeding time and sleep otherwise.

I'm pretty convinced now it's a PT because she went from fine to not ok so fast. It's like something suddenly restricted some part of her brain and kept pushing harder & harder against it and affecting those physical abilities. Her mind is more able than than her body, I see it in her reaction to her sisters, her reaction to the syringe, her reaction to me, she just can't get on her feet or make her swallowing work right.. I don't think strokes cause it's the same disabilities just intensifying rather than new problems cropping up.
I don't dispute the vet :evil: that she has an ear infection but there was no sign before I noticed her trouble friday evening, no head tilt, never rubbed at her ear. She walked fine when she was out thursday evening. Friday at the bowl with her sisters for breakfast seeming normal. Friday evening walking strange and saturday morning her last upright walk. And the antibiotics didn't help that since friday. So I think there's more going on. She can't hold a corn flake let alone chew, and the other things that so mimic the PT's I've seen. She's definitely not having seizures, the rest of her body is calm when she leisurely moves her foot or or even frantically feet-paddles, and her eyes are normal when she does.

Far as the meningitis the vet :evil: suggested - after reading about it I'm sure it could explain her symptoms, but so could an ear infection (in the beginning - but she'd be up by now with antibiotics & steroids I'd think?) or a stroke (but you'd expect things to stay the same or get better gradually - or more problems to develop with repeated strokes - not the same affected areas getting gradually worse?), or a PT (which is sure more a likelihood in rats than meningitis, and causes what she is exhibiting and with her ability to eat and her agitation bettered with prednisone I think?)
Seems to me the vet :evil: is ignoring the most likely suspect to play detective. Like asking the guy with a gun in his hand at the scene if he'd seen any strange characters about).

Yeah, I could be all wet. I know my thinking is totally skewed right now more than ever cause I'm so emotionally involved and mentally exhausted.

But I do know that my Kelley is not gonna get up on her feet again. And it's so damn unfair cause she's gone thru so much and is doing all the right things to hold on til the meds help her recover as I promised her (and believed).
I've seen prednisone work temporary miracles in their physical abilities and make capable days out of what would have been helpless days in their last days.
Kelley's downhill has been a steep and fast one and she doesn't have much time left, and prednisone didn't get her on her feet, but it has made her able to enjoy eating instead of choking, and maybe it would have been better to let her go on monday knowing now she won't get better, but she wasn't ready and I wasn't ready if she wasn't. I could let her go (and help her if she gave up) but I couldn't decide that for her on the basis of a no betterment in just 3 days antibiotics and one day's prednisone when she's fighting and her inability eat wasn't her choice but her swallowing ability..

Yesterday... was heaven for me to see her eating so wantonly and acting so calm & content and even bruxing - after the hell of her sudden illness and not knowing what to do. I knew she felt good in spite of it all. And I was happy for her she got that after the bad stuff, and relieved for me that keeping her here wasn't all hell for her.

When the vet :evil: said PTS cause she's suffering and I brought her home and didn't - honestly, I was wondering how much was because she was still fighting and of course I'll fight with her, but how much was guilt that she went down so fast and I saw no signs to act sooner. I've been over every moment from the time I clipped her claws on wednesday til friday evening finding she was sick and starting antibiotics but not knowing how sick til the morning. Trying to remember every time I saw her between then but didn't know I needed to look closer.
I brought her home from the vet :evil: without meds to Put Her To Sleep and just couldn't cause I don't trust the vet's cursory guesses.

This vet :evil: would put no more put effort into looking & learning beyond her brain-book of absorbed teaching about 'rats' for my kids than she would into boiling potatoes or cutting a hangnail off her toe. She underprescribes consistently, she doesn't consider the most likely of problems rat-physiology-wise, she gets her back up when I try to tell her something from mine or other rat-people's experience or the RMCA's recommendations, she just wants to be right and more knowledgeable than me like I care when it's my baby's life at stake. I don't go for a visual diagnosis from someone who knows less than the people here, if I need a diagnosis I sure won't get a knowledgable or even studied one from her. I go cause I can't write my own prescription and need meds.
I think she knows that and resents it. Hence giving me Medrol rather than Baytril - anything to have a better answer than me.
You see the alpha-struggle there? And why I don't trust her? Cause she can play all she wants, I just want to get the right meds so I can mix them with love & dedication and see that kid healthy with her sisters again.

And P.S. I made the 1st vet :evil: appointment for Kelley and Fidget. Fidget has bumblefoot and a skin owie problem that my Savanna had and hers cleared up with Oribiotic ointment. I added Polytopic & Vit. E to the leftover ointment to stretch it out as there was very little and I've been hoping it would work. Not well enough so I took her too specifically to get more Oribiotic ointment which I sadly can't get at the drugstore so have to pay the vet an exam fee just to get the drugs. Vet :evil: says they're out and it's on order, and oral baytril should be good enough and prescribes .04 1xday for 10 days. $55 is well spent to get Fidget the tried and true cure for her condition - but with this vet all I've done is buy her an inadequate course of antibiotics that won't help her problem but will bang any internal bug over the head with a bat and stun them just long enough for them to mutate in their sleep and wake up angrier and stronger than before and really do some permanent damage to her - not to mention unleashing more mutated demons on the world.
And Fidget is scratching more often and I'm sure the owies are mutating outside like the bugs getiing angered but not killed inside.
THIS VET :evil: KILLS MORE THAN SHE CURES RAT-WISE AT LEAST :evil: (Yes, the same one that 'took care' of Summer).

:soapbox: Ok, I'm done :cry3:

I sure don't expect everyone to read thru this whole ramble. You'd have to be in the same boat in some way to want to slow down and read rather than skim or ignore. But maybe parts of it are recognizable to someone and hopefully helpful in some way. Maybe someone even feels the union of the useless Vet :evil: Arrgghh! :wink:
 
I sure hope your girlie responds to the meds and perhaps her health will turn around. I've been in your shoes as far as it goes with deciding if you should have your rat pts or give more chances to recover. It's hard to go through this...I've heard it said before, that it's most difficult to know the right timing of putting your rat to sleep...Sometimes our rats tell us. I'll keep you both in my prayers. Just know that you are a good rattie Mom and will make the right decision for her.
Julie
 
Thankyou so much Julie. I'm trying to guage what my girl wants. I pray I'm 'getting it'.
I don't want to 'play god'. I've misbehaved plenty in this life but I sure don't want to mess with my welcome in the afterlife now that I have so many loved ones there.
 

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