Intros with intact and neutered males

[clmntine]

Starting a thread for this specific pairing of intros. Thanks Jorats and Crumbilina for the suggestion.

I am wondering if you have any experience introducing intact and neutered males? I cant find much info online about this specific sort of intros, and am a little worried. I know that I am also doing one of the most difficult intros with four males in their prime, but two being neutered should make it easier.

I have two pairs, both brothers who have been together their whole lives. My boys who are 14 months and intact (Wembley and Gobo), and my foster boys are maybe around 12 months (Gareki and Nai), we are guessing, and neutered.

So far we have been starting slowly, the fosters have only been here for five days. Their cages are set up close together so they can see and smell each other. When they were first placed beside each other, Wembley puffed up and huffed and stomped a bit at the new boys, but no one payed him any attention so he gave up on this behaviour. Gobo is the bigger and more dominant of my pair, and Gareki and the more dominant of the foster pair. I thought Gobo would be my problem rat, but I am thinking in the end it may be Wembley based on this behaviour.

I also have switched them a couple times now, placing each pair in the opposites cage giving them a chance to smell their environment and get used to the others smell up close but without being in direct contact. This didnt seem to do much at all, as the neutered boys dont scent mark at all, so my intact boys were a little oblivious as to what was going on, but the neutered boys ran around the other cage busy smelling, but gave no reaction besides curiosity.

Hoping you can share your experiences and any challenges that you faced.

Thank you so much!

 

[dspch911]

I will be interested in reading your progress. I will be trying to intro my 5 big boys (all over a year and intact) with my trio (around 4-5 months and intact). Hoping this goes better than my last attempt w/the 5 boys and the destructo 7.

 

[mia9_28]

I've done intros with intact and neutered males, and what I find is that the intact boys will sort of ignore the neutered boys as they are not a threat to them... which makes things a whole lot easier! Of course, it all depends on whether or not the neutered ones are the ones causing the trouble!

Ryder, my intact alpha, takes a long time to accept an intact male into his group, but will let neutered ones slip in pretty easily, without too much fuss.
When I was trying to introduce Casper (when he was intact) to his group, he gave him hell.. but once Casper was neutered, things went a whole lot easier. It's not Casper that was the problem, it was Ryder, but I knew that if I got Casper neutered, Ryder would accept him better. Ryder also accepted neutered Diego and Ezra pretty easily, but never accepted intact Yoshi and Gizmo.

So I think you've got a good situation on your hands, introducing two neutered boys. Just take it slow and it should be pretty easy!

 

[jorats]

Even though your boys are neutered, they still leave a lot of their scent around. This is really good news that none of the rats react to being in the different cages.

 

[clmntine]

They barely reacted at all Jorats. I think they may have been reacting to the change in decor then anything else. Everyone seems very easy going.

I am so glad to hear your stories, and how neutered males are not a threat to intact boys, making everything go more smoothly. I have a pretty good idea of how the hierarchy will go, do you think my boys will fight each other for dominance or maintain the ranking they currently have?

 

[temblabamomo]

Like a lot of intros, it is simply going to come down to the individual rats and their personalities. I've had a neutered boy who was still a little on the huffy puffy territorial side, and intact boys who could care less about new cage mates. You just never know!

It does sound like it's going to take some time and careful planning and patience. I would probably start with a scary place intro, like the tub. Any time I have one who's really huffy and puffy I opt for the tub. Keep a towel handy to toss over them to separate them if they fight, so you don't get bit. I made the mistake of getting my hand in the middle of a intro scuffle and it's truly the worst bite I've had (and I've had a lot!)

Recently I began using vanilla extract on the boys I'm introing. I'm working towards putting a 1 y.o. intact aggressive jerkrat Sid with 10 mo. old passive intact sweetie Mo. Despite being passive, Mo was attacked on their first intro. Now that they smell similar, Sid huffs and puffs, but seems a little baffled. It helps that I have an old, passive intact boy with them. Helo and Sid are very bonded, and when Sid sees gentle Helo grooming Mo, it helps him get the idea that Mo isn't an enemy. This works with Mo because he's passive, but his brother is a jerkrat and he and Sid ratballed immediately despite the vanilla. Neutered or not, it can really come down to simple personality.

I'll be interested to see how things turn out with your boys. I'm used to just introducing two rats to each other, and only recently started learning the difficulty of trying to put larger groups together. I'm currently putting 1 intact 2 yr old boy with Sid jerkrat, Mo passive intact boy, and just-neutered Lucky who I anticipate will still be kind of a jerk. It's been slow going...

 

[clmntine]

Thanks Temblabamomo! I have been debating whether or not to do scary place first. I can do bathtub, or I have a kiddy pool for a couple days. Picked it up to give to my parents for their puppy to play in. The vanilla extract is a great idea! I was planning to do that just to be safe, and make sure things go as smoothly as possible.

My boyfriend was tossing around the idea that maybe we would be bet to break up the intros, and do them in pairs and then do all four together? Would there be any benefit to this? My only real concern are the foster boys, and I think they may benefit from having each other around during intros. Would it help to do both fosters and one of my boys at a time? Or should I just give it a go with all four and see how that goes and then decide from there. My boys are very confident, but the foster boys aren't.

 

[clmntine]

Thanks Temblabamomo! I have been debating whether or not to do scary place first. I can do bathtub, or I have a kiddy pool for a couple days. Picked it up to give to my parents for their puppy to play in. The vanilla extract is a great idea! I was planning to do that just to be safe, and make sure things go as smoothly as possible.

My boyfriend was tossing around the idea that maybe we would be bet to break up the intros, and do them in pairs and then do all four together? Would there be any benefit to this? My only real concern are the foster boys, and I think they may benefit from having each other around during intros. Would it help to do both fosters and one of my boys at a time? Or should I just give it a go with all four and see how that goes and then decide from there. My boys are very confident, but the foster boys aren't.

 

[mia9_28]

I don't think you should break the intros up. I think you should go for all 4 together. I've introduced a group of four (Ryder, Milo, Keno, Diego) to a group of two (Ezra and Fiji) and a lone rat (Casper) all at once. 2 + 2 is definitely do-able. I say give it a go and see how it goes!

 

[clmntine]

Thanks! I think it would be good for moral support too. I know I would rather meet new people with a friend then by myself. My boyfriend and I may give it a go tonight if he is up for it.

I appreciate everyone's encouragement a lot! You guys are helping so much.

 

[jorats]

I wouldn't break up the intros either, get them all together at once so they can work things out. I would also leave out the vanilla. At some point the rats must deal with everyone. Masking is simply avoiding and delaying the inevitable.

 

[clmntine]

Thanks Jorats! I have tomorrow off, so I think I will give it a go tomorrow morning/afternoon. I am so nervous but SO excited to get this all going. I so want them to have play mates, and rats to pile and sleep with.

 

[clmntine]

Does it matter who goes into the tub first? The resident rats or the fosters? I was thinking foster boys first.

 

[clmntine]

I did the first introduction in the tub this morning. They spent about 40 minutes together, but after the third round of Cheerios and Gerber puffs everyone seemed bored, and more focused on climbing to my shoulder or escaping the tub, so that was that.

It was actually rather dull and uneventful! WHOOHOOO! Some good ol' butt sniffing. Gobo and Wembley looked the teeniest bit puffy at first, but that was it. No more huffing and puffing, no force grooming, not much of anything actually. At one point Nai stole a cheerio that Gobo was eating and Gobo didnt do anything! I figure that is a very good sign. I know I get in trouble when I try to steal anything my boys are eating! Everyone was eating, which I know is a good sign. Gareki and Nai seemed to be doing a little bit of grooming that seemed like nervous grooming to me, but nothing in excess.

Took some photos, they are all kind of blurry.

Gobo and Nai snacking together.

Nai sniffing Wembley.

Gobo getting a quick sniff of Nai.

Gareki busy scratching his ear, Nai smelling Wembley, and Gobo seems to be plotting his escape.

I guess we will do #2 either later today or tomorrow. It should be a little more intense from what I have read, but so far so good! I am feeling really good about everything.

 

[jorats]

That's great!
Sorry I missed that question but you are right, fosters go in first this way the residents can't claim the spot.
Now remember, #2 can be slightly worse than #1 but that's normal, they will start to recognize each other and that's when they will start to settle up the hierarchy.

 

[clmntine]

Its okay that you missed my question, I figured it was safer to do fosters first anyways.

My boyfriend wanted to do #2 last night, I think he was sad he wasnt there for #1 LOL, so we did a quick little intro in the bathtub again. It also went very well! Again, it was rather uneventful, Gobo and Wembley arent showing any signs of aggression - WHOOHOOO. They were force grooming Nai (the smallest guy) a bit, but he was very submissive and let it happen.

I think I will try to do another intro this afternoon. Maybe on the bed this time? Everyone gets so bored in the bathtub, and quickly it turns into a game of escape the tub to moms shoulders and bother her, instead of get to know the new rats.

 

[jorats]

Sounds great! Yep, move it to the bed since it's going so well in the tub. It doesn't sound like Gobo and Wembley thought the tub was a scary place anyway. lol

 

[clmntine]

Shelagh and Jenny came by tonight to dose everyone with Revolution (thank you thank you thank you!) and after having everyone out together and them climbing in and out of each others cages without a single huff or puff, Shelagh decided we should try to throw everyone in the CN and see what happens! So we did! And nothing at all happened. It was very peaceful! Just a couple pins and force grooming, but no one seems bothered at all.

 

[lilspaz68]

It was incredibly uneventful :joy:

 

[clmntine]

It still is! Its going so well. I am so proud of all the boys.
We have officially renamed Gareki, he is now Mokey. Sticking to our Fragle Rock theme. Although I do not think Nai will get a new name, it suits him too well.