intros : old lady and younger man rat

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My girl didn't like Oscar at all and was relentless biting both hind feet. At the time I did wonder if it was because he was dragging them. He had HED. She was okay when she was introed to 2 younger males and another female though. Maybe she likes her men younger? lol
 
I think the more Skittles will protest and assert herself the more PC will stop bugging her feet.
The problem with Oscar, he would try to "drag" away from Jetta but not really turn around and give her heck.
 
jorats said:
I think the more Skittles will protest and assert herself the more PC will stop bugging her feet.
The problem with Oscar, he would try to "drag" away from Jetta but not really turn around and give her heck.
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Gosh.. I hope so. We're going to have another intro tonight, and I'll plan the timing again like last night, so that it's when Skittles' energy level is highest.

Skittles had an exam at the vet today, to evaluate her tumor situation, and it was the first time I saw she had a few bite marks on her armpit tumor. Undoubtedly this was from one of the intros, when PC was grabbing her there and going for her feet. So I'm going to have to be more vigilant during the intros.

I think at some point, if things still aren't working, I may have to give up on the intros and just have play dates daily with Skittles and Trust, since they get along with no apparent issues.

But we're not there yet..
 
For the past few days we've been going by Skittles' time clock. When she gets up and has energy, we start the intros with only Skittles and Trust. Then after 20 minutes or so, we add PC. So far, this has been working very well. It puts PC at a bit of a disadvantage, 'cause he's coming into their territory when he joins the intro in progress. But he's been less aggressive.

And in the meantime, Skittles and Trust have started getting along more as well. They're grooming each other some and standing side by side a lot.

Unfortunately, the intros are still not long enough I think. We go 35 - 40 minutes before Skittles starts grasping a person to climb onto as in "get me out of here I'm done!" And I've been following her lead most of the time.

This also leaves Skittles and PC with only maybe 10-15 minutes together during the intro. So, although they're doing okay together these last few times, that's not enough time yet.

I hope to extend the time period a bit each day until we're close to an hour.. but a lot depends on Skittles' energy level.

Thoughts? ideas? suggestions?
 
I'd start adding PC right from the get go. And I would allow them to get tired together and see where they choose to sleep. You might be surprised and see them go to each other to cuddle during nap time. You really need that extra time together.
 
jorats said:
I'd start adding PC right from the get go. And I would allow them to get tired together and see where they choose to sleep. You might be surprised and see them go to each other to cuddle during nap time. You really need that extra time together.
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Friday was truly amazing. Skittles had been to the vet in the morning, and she always stresses when I take her on that long ride. It's a good 2 1/2 hours start to finish, and the rest of the day, she just wanted to be near me whenever I was home. So I kept her close. We really bonded.

Somewhere around 10pm we started intros, and all was as usual. But at one point, all the ratties seemed to need a rest. At that point, Petit Chef and Trust cuddled together under a cardboard tent, and Skittles stayed alone under the log bridge. And then it happened... Skittles backed out of her snug,safe space, and walked over to the cardboard tent, and eased her way in at the side, next to Trust. For the first time ever, all three ratties were side by side during rest time.

I just stood there with my heart in my mouth... what will happen now?

Well, PC decided 3 was a crowd I guess,and he just walked out, but Skittles and Trust stayed together for some time. They cuddled some and groomed. But that wasn't the end of it for PC for the night. Before the intros were over, he was behaving kindly with Skittles too, 'though no cuddles.

Then came Saturday night, and I was hoping we'd see more of the same, but this time, each rattie took their rest time separately. Even PC and Trust were not resting together during intros. But PC did interact a bit more with Skittles for a while. In a few cases, I wasn't quite sure if PC was going for Skittles' feet, so I erred on the safe side and interrupted them gently.

oops... forgot to add a few photos ... here it is Trust greeting Skittles in the log bridge:





and here are all three together looking over the edge of the earth.. er... I mean table :) :


 
It's getting better and better. :) You can see that Skittles does need buddies because she chose to go be with the three. I'm so happy for Skittles.
You're a great rat mom. :)
 
It is going better and better each day now! Still guiding PC away from Skittles here and there, though, to be sure he isn't about to nip her feet or her armpit-tumor. But OMG they just melted my heart. :heart: :heart:

Last night as soon as they all got onto the table, Skittles ran right over to the two of them and for at least the first 20 minutes, they were all huddled together in a rat pile. Lots of grooming and just being together. Wish I had a photo of it (my camera man/hubby wasn't there). It looked like they were making a pyramid inside this folded cardboard tent! How sweet!

After the intro was done (about an hour), I put them all back into their respective cages, and the cages are now very very close together. And there was still lots of excitement and interest from both cages. I don't know if it's just some of her good days or it's intro-related, but Skittles has had a lot more energy the last few days than usual. She's really interested in life.
 
For the past few days of intros, PC has not been biting Skittles' feet. (fingers crossed). We've been keeping all three ratties out for a full hour. But there's a lot less interaction between them all than usual too. They almost seem disinterested in each other for most of the hour. I'm a bit surprised at that. Is this okay?

Also we are still doing everything on neutral territory. Yesterday after intros were over, I had Trust out and Skittles seemed to want out too, so I brought her to the sofa (NOT neutral territory) where Trust was and within moments they were fighting.

Is there another stage after neutral territory before moving them all into a "new" cage together? I'm not comfortable putting them all together yet, but starting to look ahead now. Also, note that Skittles is having more trouble moving around now, as her tumors have grown bigger, and I don't have any high shelves in her cage. But PC and Trust are used to shelves, climbing, etc. I'm wondering how people usual handle this kind of thing.
 
The stage is familiar ground. Now the need to meet on an area where the rats have always played. And add toys too.
When I have oldies and young ones in the same cage, I usually rig the ramp so that the oldie can't reach but the young ones can.
 
jorats said:
The stage is familiar ground. Now the need to meet on an area where the rats have always played. And add toys too.
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Can do... actually that will make life easier for me, but just so I get the most of it for ratties and me, can you tell me what the intention of this step is? I figure when they all move in together, it will be in a new cage which none of them can lay claim to... ie neutral territory.. This familiar ground step, however, will put them in territory that both of them think is theirs, so I expect squabbles to break out..

Thanks.
 
ChrisK said:
can you tell me what the intention of this step is? I figure when they all move in together, it will be in a new cage which none of them can lay claim to... ie neutral territory.. This familiar ground step, however, will put them in territory that both of them think is theirs, so I expect squabbles to break out..

Thanks.
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We do familiar ground because we need to see exactly how rats will react when there is "claimable" space. Trust me, the second a rat enters a cage, it's no longer new. It's claimed. So we need to get their "issues" out of the way before they are enclosed together. The more they meet on familiar ground the better...because then their scent becomes part of their world and will be natural once they live together in the cage.
And yes...expect squabbles... but these must happen in order to insure peace in a cage.
 
Ahh. okay. .. so in this case, squabbles = a good thing ! lol

We're gonna start that tonight.

Thanks, Jorats!
-ck

jorats said:
We do familiar ground because we need to see exactly how rats will react when there is "claimable" space. Trust me, the second a rat enters a cage, it's no longer new. It's claimed. So we need to get their "issues" out of the way before they are enclosed together. The more they meet on familiar ground the better...because then their scent becomes part of their world and will be natural once they live together in the cage.
And yes...expect squabbles... but these must happen in order to insure peace in a cage.
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xKrAzEdShOoTeRx, you probably haven't noticed then, that I have posted on jorat's thread, and have been following her intro videos, and thread. Yes they are very helpful!

Jorats -- I did the intro on familiar ground last night and there was lots of squabbling!! We only lasted 25 minutes because poor Skittles was starting to stress too much. I put her on the sofa first, but it seemed the other two were each going after her shortly after they got there. Even the youngest one. I pulled her off Skittles and then employed the technique you showed in your video to dominate her. And that seemed to stop the fighting between them for the evening. But I'm still more scared of PC fighting with her, 'cause he's a big boy and she's a frail old girl... don't want her to get hurt. So I've been separating them as soon as they're near eachother and their hair is standing on end.

We're giving Skittles lots of extra TLC apart from the intro time, and will try again tonight. I may move it to a different familiar place to see how that goes.. thanks again for your feedback!
 
This has been very interesting.. familiar territory intros.. The first few days, both PC and Trust have dominated Skittles, and Skittles was getting kinda nervous, and wanted to stay less and less time for each intro. Today I took Skittles out first, and after 15 minutes with just Skittles and me, I added PC and Trust. Amazing difference! Skittles stood her ground with PC. They tumbled with each other twice. Skittles was very calm afterwards, but PC still had his hair up. I only intervened once during this time.

So I thought that it went exceptionally well. BUT even so, after only 10 minutes, Skittles went back to her cage to veg and sleep. I was hoping to take them all out again tonight, but am realizing now that it's getting late and it's not likely.

Ten minutes isn't nearly enough! I may have to move them all to another room far from the cages, but that won't be familiar territory for everyone, and may also stress Skittles... not sure what my next move is yet.. but I'm sure they have more squabbling to work thru before moving in together..
 
Something new the last few nights. When PC gets close to Skittles, the two of them are face to face, but no movement from either of them. Then PC makes two really loud huffing sounds.

I took that as a prelude to aggression and separated them momentarily. But PC went back to the same place, position, and did it again. I separated them again.

Has anyone seen this kind of thing before? Is this aggression?

I'm still on guard because PC does still behave aggressively towards Skittles. This week he decided to go back to biting her feet. He's really keeping me on my toes!
 
My boys do that daily, to my dog. If she goes near their cage, they huff and puff. Some bite her, but for some it is a show "hey look how tough I am" because when she actually goes near them, they run lol..


My girl pika did that one time to a stuff animal i made smell like some boy rats we had that were new, she went in full attack mode when that happened though so I would say it probably depends on the rat if it is going to be major aggression or just a show to ward off some intruders.

Maybe he thinks it might attract her to him if he looks big and bad? Guys tend to do that sometimes.
 

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