Intro with a biter - two adult males?

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trillium

trillium

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2007
Messages
377
Location
Southwestern Ontario
Hi

I've been working on integrating Shivers and Hobbes for quite awhile now. I'll admit I'm a wimp when it comes to this, and I'm also in no rush because I will give them both lots of attention as necessary until I get them together.

I had stopped while Seagram was ill because he absolutely would not put up with Shivers at all; they poofed at the mere hint of each others' smell and Shivers took a nasty chunk out of Seagram once -- so I wasn't having that happen again at his old age.

Here's the question: Has anyone had a rat that seems to know only, really, how to bite and integrated it well with others?

I think Shivers is lacking on "normal" rattie language. He has licked me once, but the majority of the time he just gets excited and places his teeth around my hand, finger, etc. He never bites down now (has been neutered), but when I have him hang out with Hobbes on my shoulders or in a control space all he seems to do is get really tense as soon as he realizes Hobbes is near, and his only response, even when he appears non-poofed and just hanging out is to lean over to him and do the same kind of bite he does with me. Hobbes has, on several occasions offered to groom Shivers -- Shivers allows it, if I also am "a part" of the situation and have my hands kinda grooming along with him. But if Hobbes just tries to do it on his own, Shivers tenses right up.

The attempts to bite have always been on Hobbes' facial area, nose, head; Shivers just stays very still -- gets close enough (or Hobbes leans in for a sniff) and he bites. He's never drawn blood, but I think he's working his way up to it, and Hobbes squeeks in dismay and backs right off, but then (being unneutered) tends to get a bit miffed after the second or third nip.

Am I missing something? I refuse to even place them alone in a neutral space because I think they might get in a real brawl. They have done a lot of cage switching and hanging out ON me, which they do fine with. As long as I'm there as a mediator to keep my hand sort of as a third rat, they will hang out together and even crawl back and forth over each other, but I don't trust Shivers a bit. He's also nosed his way up and put his teeth around Hobbes' tail, but I noticed and pulled Hobbes away before he did anything.

Anyone else integrated a rattie like this and have any hints? Do you think he'll ever be able to figure it out?
:eatu:
 
Shivers is, Hobbes isn't -- Hobbes has always been a very laid back boy though -- He really doesn't act like the other males I have had, and he was pretty easy to intro to Wicket and Seagram. I think HE has good social skills! *snort*

ETA: I should probably add that Shivers was a one of the hyper-hormonal male types. He was neutered partly because of his intense and aggressive biting behaviour. He was adopted as an adult, lone male, from a humane society.
 
I'm very surprised that while on you they are behaving themselves. When you think about it, you are not neutral territory and one of them must be claiming you as his... but because they don't get upset with each other while on you, I'd say go for it!!
I'd do the neutral area intro for sure. Be at the ready with a towel to throw on them.
The fact that Shivers is aiming for the face means he's not aggressive, he's scared and warning him to back off.
If he was an aggressive rat, he would jump at Hobes' back, stomach and testicles. But he doesn't... this is a very good sign, just means he needs reassurance. When you do neutral intro, be there with them, keep your hand close since they don't react to each other when you are with them, when one goes near the other in a huffy kind of way, just gently move him, not by grabbing, just by pushing with your hand. When you do the pushing with your hand, you are showing dominance if he listens and doesn't go back immediately, he's respecting you as alpha. If Shivers continues to go after Hobes in a confrontational way, gently push his head towards the ground and hold for a few seconds, that's another dominating move by you. Also, when Hobes climbs on Shiver's back, this is a dominance move and it's understandable if Shivers becomes tense. Try to discourage Hobes from going on Shivers' back, until Shivers is more relaxed.
 
I think while they're on me, they're more focused on where I'm walking, treats, and balance -- rather than fighting -- that keeps them busy.

Thanks for the advice. I guess I just have to be patient. I put them on the bathroom counter this evening, and Hobbes was quiet and didn't do much. Shivers (who's younger) went blasting around, but then poofed upon re-discovering Hobbes sitting in his way, then started circling looking for a way to get at him with that sort of stiffened waddle. I think Shivers is definitely going to be alpha out of the two if I ever do get them actually living together.

He did let me redirect him in another direction a few times. I guess just slow, slow. Maybe he'll calm down eventually. Frustrating that they can hang out side by side cuddled on my shoulder, but then Shivers just goes so bonkers as soon as he's free.

ps. While Shivers is still a bit grabby when excited, he is a lovely manicurist. He's chewed off three nails for me so far. Very neat job. :giggle:
 
I wonder if a fear based intro would help? Popping them into a carrier and taking them for a drive? Depends on how comfortable Shivers is in the car/carrier, though....
 
That's a good idea too -- I almost did it last Monday when I took Hobbes in to get more meds. I thought a trip to the vets together might bond them, but I took a peek after I had popped them in the carrier and carried it a few steps down the hall, and Shivers was looking all poofy and dangerous, so I chickened out. I imagined the accident I'd cause when I heard the screaming dervishes rolling back and forth in the carrier, and trying to separate them from such a small area... Hobbes was oblivious, but I think Shivers is so confident (he's really active and adventurous) that the carrier doesn't faze him too much at all.

dang it. there's gotta be a way. :wallbang:

they're on my lap right now as I type. I'm trying to take them out on the weekends during the day when they're all dozy.
 
A fearful place for intro is a really good ideas, it forces the rats to bond and share their fear yet comfort each other.
You can try with the bathtub, some rats are really scared of the bathtub, minus the water or even having them on top of the washing machine or dryer might spook them a bit.
 
ARGH!! I'm ready to pull my hair out. I'm seriously wondering if I just need to let Shivers live alone. I've been having the boys spend increasing amounts of time together - continuing cage switching and everything else, but he just will not relax. I thought they were doing well, so today, on a three hour road trip to visit family I put them in the travel cage together and thought it would be a good test of things since I could be there to monitor and it was the middle of the day so they would likely zonk out. Hobbes chilled out and relaxed, Shivers just wouldn't settle. He spent the entire trip awake and periodically poofy (anytime Hobbes shifted position) and eyeing Hobbes with what I think is total terror. Any time Hobbes even looked at Shivers, the fur would poof, the ears and whiskers would go straight up and forward - ready to attack. The only reason things didn't explode is because Hobbes is so laid back that he didn't move quickly or provoke Shivers in any way. This is the way it has been every time I've had them out together. They both will go about their business and ignore each other sometimes, but if they run into each other, Shivers immediately goes into attack mode -- I can divert him generally, but he never, ever loses this tension.

Just needed to vent. I suppose I haven't really given up yet, but I'm getting there. Shivers just seems quite happy and healthy on his own and I feel like I'm forcing him into a situation that is causing him far more stress than it is giving him any comfort. That just leaves Hobbes without anyone to power groom though.
 
When you say ready to attack, what does he do to give you this feeling.
Also, if this is stressing you out and you feel it's harder on the boys, give it a rest, hold up for a few weeks and try again.
 
I suppose it's a combination of things - the poofed hair, the total stillness and lifting of the front legs off the ground, the whiskers and ears forward, the partly opened mouth -- I think he's ready to fight.

He's jumped on and pulled big chunks of hair out of Hobbes before. He has twice flipped Hobbes, and I know they need to establish dominance, but as soon as he has him pinned he drives in looking for a place to bite, not power groom. Thus far there's been no blood (no blood no foul???) but the huge chunks of hair seem like more than simple dominance? And Hobbes starts screaming bloody murder, which I never heard him do in intros with the other boys - even when they were pinning each other. I tend to think Hobbes is just defending himself well until I can get between them.

I don't know. Maybe I'm interpreting it wrong, but I just couldn't believe that Shivers maintained his level of tension for the entire trip to Guelph - I kept waiting for him to relax and nap a bit, but he never did. So disappointed. Do you think I should let them battle it out once just to see if maybe Hobbes (and I) are just overreacting? I'm so worried about one of them getting hurt.

Maybe I should just take a break. I've got them housed separately up here and I can transport them back separately, so it's not an issue either way. I was just hopeful that they would bond.
 
You're interpreting that right. I would take a break and try again later. Avoiding blood shed is better than waiting it out.
It really can be frustrating. How long has Shivers been neutered now?
 
*grumbles*--- why can't they just bloody well get over it! -- *grumbles*

anyhow. Shivers was neutered back in... January? I think, or early Feb (I'd have to check my daybook). They're motoring along reasonably well though; they can socialize on my shoulders, and sometimes hang out together in neutral, unfamiliar, monitored areas, but not when one or both are feeling too comfortable - mainly Shivers.

Hobbes continues his meds, and thank goodness for everyone's PB suggestions because he's finally gotten sick of my tried and true olive oil or pancake syrup concoctions. PB worked most wonderfully this morning though!!

Thanks for the feedback, I'll be back to whine more later I'm sure... :)
 
We've spent three full evenings on the couch together Shivers, Hobbes, and I without fighting!! I think that trip last weekend may have caused a breakthrough even though Shivers was tense the whole way... Here's hoping...

I still don't think they've quite determined who's going to be top rattie. I think Shivers knows it really ought to be him, given his size, his strength and youth, and previous behaviours (crazy hormonal male stuff), but without the testosterone to goad him on anymore he just can't quite figure it out, so he keeps breaking down in his attempts to be tough and letting Hobbes latch on to his head for blissfully contented (for Hobbes at least) power grooming sessions.

It'll still be awhile before I think I'll feel comfortable throwing them in a closed cage together, but they're definitely going to get to hang out together for out times! Yey!
 
Keep up the trio intro!! You'll get there one way or another.

Another thing I've noticed with some alphas. Some of them really don't want the job but must take it if no one else steps up to the plate. But if another alpha shows up, they gladly back down and become a most calm and docile rat because he no longer has to be worried about keeping everyone in line. This is what happened to my Julia.
 

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