I was wondering...

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keysong

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2009
Messages
50
Location
Ottawa, ON
BEFORE I SAY ANYTHING ELSE:

I do not breed rats. I do not support breeding rats unless there is prior research done. I do not plan on ever breeding rats.

Now that that's over and done with, my question:

Why is it that you have to study rat genetics so carefully? It seems that if a rat doesn't have very good lineage, it's almost guaranteed that they'll get violently sick or something else horrible. What confuses me is that you don't have to worry about that with people - it's unlikely that there'll be something wrong with your child even if you didn't study your genetics before you got pregnant. And it's the same thing with dogs, except even more extreme. Purebred dogs usually have worse health than dogs that are mutts. Why is this? I find it awfully confusing.
 
That's not entirely true. Lots of diseases are linked genetically. Some are scarier than others, mind you.

Look at it this way... I'll use purebred dogs as an example but saying that purebreds are typically not as healthy as mutts is not really true either.

Take two dogs, that have very short muzzles and have them breed. Their puppies will most likely have short muzzles. Breed those puppies with other short muzzled dogs, and you make puppies with even shorter muzzles.
Now, pretend that instead of muzzles, the genetic tendency we are affecting is a disease. Two dogs with a higher possibility of having this disease are going to create puppies with a very high possibility. This is why purebreds tend to pass on genetic conditions. Hip dysplasia is a good example. There are some eye conditions that are the same.

BUT, if you bred two different breed dogs that both were prone to hip dysplasia, the higher chance of seeing it is still there. So I dislike the blanket statement of mixed breeds being healthier.

A GOOD dog breeder DOES carefully follow the genetics of their dogs. Their breeding dogs get tested genetic health issues regularly and they don't breed dogs that show markers of possibly passing on anything, even if the dog isn't ill. These breeders will show you the results of their dogs most recent tests.

It would be nice if there was tests of this nature for our rats. I think the only option available currently is to log any shown health problems in a database.

Actually, I have the perfect example for humans.

Let's talk about Dwarfs, aka Little People. If a regular height person and a little person have a child, it has a 50% chance of being a little person, and a 50% chance of being regular height.

When two little people have a child, things change considerably. They have a 50% chance of having a dwarf child, a 25% chance of having a child of normal height and a 25% chance of having a child who has homozygous or "double dominant" achondroplasia. This almost always ends up being lethal in the first year of life.

I know this is a fairly extreme example, but it does show that many people DO need to consider their genetics when having children. I personally look at my fiance and his health problems and I wonder how much of that is going to muddy up any future kids we have. LOL

For reference: http://www.dwarfism.ru/facts3_Eng.htm
 
far too many humans breed indiscrimately as well. i worked with a vet that had a heart condition in his family history and proceeded to have 5 kids. they are all on meds and the youngest had a pacemaker at 5ys.
 
I think for people...sometimes...you can't help who you fall in love with. Or worse, you can't help who you meet, find attractive and uh...'breed' with. Often all this happens before you get a chance to ask about their genetic and familial histories. I know on my husband's side of the family, there's heart problems - but I feel better knowing cause I can give him heart-healthy foods and make him exercise etc.
 
I would say the biggest concern in rat is megacolon which happens when you breed high whites. Even those breeding siblings of high whites. Berks and hooded can also produce babies with mc, all depending on their genetics and background.
Also, a dedicated breeder who has studied rat genetics is a more dedicated breeder, one that cares and is deeply committed to raising the best possible rats.
Anyone can put rat A with rat B. But it takes a good experienced breeder to tell you before hand what those rats will look like and their temperament. You can't breed just any rat. You must meet the demands of the pretty colors and the dumbo ears and rexy fur.
Why else do you find all the blacks, agoutis, pews in rescues looking all sad with their standard ears and standard coats. Although, more and more we are finding the highly desirable rats in rescues and shelters, thanks to all the backyard breeders. :(
 
Rats are bred when they are fairly young ... usually under a year.
It is dangerous to breed females for the first time if they are over 8 months of age.
Often health problems do not show up in rats until they are older.
We are getting a lot of heart problems in rats, for example.
Usually the heart problems don't start causing major health problems until the rat is around 1.5 years old.

If someone didn't know the genetic family history of rats prior to breeding them, and didn't have a good understanding of rat genetics, they would likely be breeding babies that would have all sorts of health problems.
Since breeders claim to be breeding healthier rats, they need to know the genetics.

Breeders do want to have people buy the rats they breed, as jorats said, so they need to breed rats with the characteristics people find more attractive.
If breeders don't have a good understanding of rat genetics this can cause problems as well.
It is my understanding that if breeding for recessive traits for too long in a line, there can be all sorts of problems.
Breeding dumbo to dumbo would be an example.
 
when i bred i tended to breed the "nonfancier" rats to achieve some dumbos, rexes, and colors but i rarely bred dumbo to dumbo or blue to blue mainly because you had better genetic variablility when you didnt. i also rarely let someone have 2 or 3 all rex or dumbo or blue or so forth forcing people to take the "normal" rats. there is absolutly no difference in personality or temperment.

it really is difficult to get to good breeding stock esp if you are far from good established lines like i was. i had to work with what i got and i added a few outside that turned out to be a good idea with some and bad with others. i was by no means a big breeder but i still had anywhere from 25-45 rats at any given time. so its a dedication beyond belief.
 
Thanks for your replies. It just occurred to me that there are more people and I see the regular ones every day... which would explain why I didn't think of human genetic conditions. :doh:

SQ, your response was very useful and helpful, so thank you. :)
 
Genetics are extremely fascinating, and although I have never bred an animal and never will, I do follow genetics and read up about them often.
Just understanding the effects of dominant and recessive genes are necessary, not only to avoid potentially lethal combinations like megacolon and spineless rats that are bred to produce tailless varieties, you should know what kind of rat you are going to end up with as far as looks are concerned.
Understanding the animals background, and what genetics that they carry is very important because so many are hidden. Many rats are high whites and have the potential to cause megacolon, but you often can't tell just by looking at them. The tailless issues are more obvious.
If you encounter someone who is breeding rescue rats or pet store rats, you are looking at a recipe for disaster. Breeders need to know extensive background information on the animals to ensure that future generations are healthy and happy. Most (yes, that is right - most) breeders today breed rats because they have a desirable look or might be the most darling rat in temperament, but they cut corners that more than often result in a rat with negative genetic traits that are going to be detrimental to them and more than likely heartbreaking to their rat parent.
People who have had rats for many years can tell you that their health and temperament have decreased in quality over the years, and that is a result of poor breeding practices. Some health issues that are common today were less common in the past. Their lifespans seem to be getting shorter as well.
Breeding animals is an enormous responsibility. You are 100% responsible for every life that you create, and whether they live long and happy lives or short and miserable ones. All that is on the breeder and nobody else. Breeders are not only responsible for inherent traits that might cause illness or temperament issues, but they are also responsible for every single home that they place rats in and the environments that they are subjecting them to.
It is serious business, with huge ethical considerations, and it isn't taken nearly as seriously as it should be. If people gave breeding animals the respect that it deserves, and take the necessary responsibility for those lives, then less people would likely be doing it.
 
Thanks. My rats are themselves oops litter rescues, and I'm trying not to expect very long lives for them... but it's hard, because I love them. :? I agree with you. Backyard breeders are irresponsible people... Uck. I wish I could bop them over the head and say "LOOK AT THIS! LOOK AT WHAT YOU'RE DOING!" and then somehow make them stop.
 
keysong said:
Thanks. My rats are themselves oops litter rescues, and I'm trying not to expect very long lives for them... but it's hard, because I love them. :?
Click to expand...

You don't always get the worst, so try to stay positive. I have had many, many rescues, who were obviously pet store rats or rats from backyard breeders, who have lived very happy and healthy lives. I have had very few who needed extensive treatments or who passed away under two years (which is not as long as they used to live, unfortunately), although the heartbreak makes it seem like more. Many of them have far outlived the few 'breeder' rats that I have had, so keep your chin up. They are not necessary going to be sickly or have temperament issues, and even if they do it does not mean that they are going to die young.
You just need to do your homework and have a good vet handy and things could work out very well for all of you. The quality of their homes does play greatly in what kind of lives they live.
 
Well, they definitely don't have temperament issues, but one of them has a chronic/persistent URI (I've given up on Chlorpalm because it's not making a difference). She's going to the vet as soon as possible... and knowing my mother, it could take a while. I'll just bother her and hope she gives in soon. I'll ask about Baytril, I guess, and maybe zithro. I do have a good vet. I'll just keep hoping and enjoying them while they're here.
 
Hmm... I'm not sure how I feel about that. My vet seemed to know what he was doing and he obviously liked Imogen (she was the only one that went) but maybe Chlorpalm wasn't a very good thing to prescribe. I'll ask about Baytril and doxy. Thanks, lilspaz.
 
I know very little about genetics, and even less about rat genetics (all those Hh symbols and discussions of high white confuse me half to death :?: ).

What I do know is that it is a real problem if the gene pool gets too small. So small isolated communities of people are at risk over the years. Endangered species, too. Rats are probably at risk because their gene pool is small (not many breeders would seek out a rat from Down Under, say, when breeding), they mate indiscriminately with sibs, and they were designed to survive as a species by rapid reproduction rather than long life.

People are better off because we have a good chance of reproducing with people whose genes are very different from our own.
 
That makes sense. Thank you!

I know what you mean. Somewhere I saw a discussion about genetics, and someone was trying to demonstrate something with some graph and there was Fufu and aa and other things everywhere and I though my BRAIN WAS GOING TO EXPLODE. :wink:
 

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