How to tell if it's hormonal aggression, or establishing hieracy

[Racholo]

Hi again,

I have recently gotten two new boys.
Intros went perfect and very smoothly.
Zac was bruxing and boggling with cuddles the first day I got him.

Now he's taken a turn.
He is super dramatic now when I pick him up. He has become a bit of a bully.
He chases all the boys around the cage, including the boy he came with.
Apparently he was bottom of the hieracy at the breeders but he is the older boy here so he may see that he has a chance of being top rat here and trying to establish that.
I just find it unusual how he is bullying the boy he came with to.
He is 4.5 months so it also could be hormonal, he was a rescue boy and his father had hormonal aggression.

Does it sound like its hormonal or establishing dominance?

 

[Dena]

Is blood being drawn from you, or his cagemates? Is he all puffed up (fur standing on end) when you grab him, or when he's chasing the others? He's still sort of a baby. Babies like to run, bounce on each other, stand up and smack each other, and roll around on the ground. Sometimes you will hear a few protest squeaks from one of them. As long as fur isn't flying, and they aren't screaming, or blood isn't getting drawn, they could just be being playful babies. Of course if you are worried about hormonal aggression, you could always start looking for a good vet with the experience and knowledge to do a neuter on your boy. I just think I'd wait until he hits the 6 month mark. But I don't know if you HAVE to. SQ or Lilspaz would know this better than me. I've never had to deal with hormonal aggression with any of my boys. But I do have a girl who is a drama queen if I try to pick her up before she wants me to. Her name is Créme, but we call her scream for this reason. She will press herself in the corner, tense her body, lift her front leg, and scream, then try to roll out of your grip. Once you pick her up, she'll be fine. Or if she comes out to you, she's fine. I think it's because rats don't see well, and if I smell like something other than my normal self, she doesn't know who or what I am, and freaks out. She's a very shy, peculiar rat when she's around people she doesn't know. She doesn't like new comers to touch her or pick her up, and if she's on my shoulder, and I get to close to someone else, she will lean as far away as she can! If I put her on their shoulder, she will scramble back to me as fast as she can. She lets my other two kids pick her up, but if she hears me talking, she will try to find me, and climb to me as fast as she can. My daughter's other rat, jellybean (créme was supposed to be her rat, but took to me for some reason) was like that too. Some rats are just silly like that.

 

[ViciousCurse]

Has anyone drawn any blood? If he has, I would recommend a neuter for Zac, especially if hormonal aggression runs in the family for him (did the breeder let you know upfront that Zac has hormonal aggression in his family?). If he's chasing around the other rats constantly, it goes beyond establishing a hierarchy and into hormonal aggression. Male rats, when they're allowed to meet face-to-face will often follow each other around (mostly to smell the new rat(s)'s genitals to get an understanding of who the new rat is), and then often leave it at that, maybe try to establish some dominance.
I can't speak on female rats since I've never had female rats.

How long has it been since introductions were done? Was anyone puffy or crabby at all during the intros?

When I brought home Owen and Peter (two rescues from nearly a year ago), they were completely fine with babies up until a month after I brought them home, even after introductions went smoothly and there were zero issues. Then the bullying started. A couple of senior members have mentioned it may be that the bullying rats (in your case, Zac) are feeling stressed about the new additions, along with being hormonal. They recommended a neuter for my Owen and Peter.

Also, age doesn't necessarily decide who is the "alpha" rat. I've seen plenty of older, male rat babies submit to the younger babies, and I've seen small babies flip my older adult rats, especially when they're maturing and sensing a shift in the hierarchy (usually at this point, my adult male rats are becoming elderly and don't care too much for their ranking and just tolerate the babies).

(I see Dena posted and asked the same questions, lol.)

 

[Racholo]

He was fully integrated into the cage last week, because they got along superbly and I was told the process could probably be sped up this age.
I feel quite guilty if this is my fault for rushing the process
During intros there was no fights and three of the boys were happy bruxing.
The next few days testing hang out time absolutely no fights what so ever, and they were all cuddling up together when I put them together to hang out in the cage, a bit of wrestling to establish dominance but it was mainly the two youngest boys.
No blood drawn so far, but I have noticed a couple of boys with what looks like could have been the remnants of a bit of blood on their fur - small patches of a very light rust coloured haze on their fur, unless buck grease. I found two bites on my Hezsky, but that's all I can find bite wise.
There's only been a tiny bit of fur puffing.
He just chases everyone. Even up the cage walls. When he does reach them, and they squeak it's different from their play fighting squeaks, a couple of times they've shrieked loudly and I've rushed over and grabbed the boy, or the ran up the cage to me for protection.
He hasn't shown aggression towards me, but it's just weird he's gone super dramatic because he was quite sweet with the breeder, and also me starting off. And he never used to be a drama queen, not until my house.
It is amusing to. One of my boys rushed past him with a piece of broccoli and he squeaked as if he'd been attacked.
All the boys are now sleeping at the top of the honeycomb together, and him at the bottom.
The breeder let me know up front about the dad without me asking, she has been fantastic really.

 

[SQ]

At 4.5 months he is no longer a baby, but is a teen so he could be hormonal.
If you have a good vet with the knowledge and experience to safely neuter him, that would be an option.

If you recently introed them, it is possible that you went too fast and thus need to go back a couple of steps, especially if it has been a week, the boys are afraid, chasing is still occurring, and one boy has been bitten a few times.
Personally, I would go back to neutral area intros and if ok there a couple of times move to familiar area intros.
Was the cage and everything in it clean and rearranged, before you added all the boys - so that it was no ones territory?

Aggression would be hair standing up (puffy), backing his side into other rats, fighting ball, boxing, drawing blood unless it is by accident. The rusty colour on hair could be porphyrin staining from grooming, depending on where it is.

Establishing dominance often involved "power" grooming
www,joinrats.com has some info that would answer your question, as well as info on doing intros
There is also information in the Reference Thread regarding many topics https://www.ratshackforum.com/threads/reference-thread-read-only.35894/

 

[Racholo]

Thank you, I'll do that if it continues. He's been nice this afternoon to everyone since posting this.
They were brought into a totally new cage to everyone, because I upgraded my cage with the extra ratties

 

[ViciousCurse]

Bruxing doesn't always necessarily mean the rat is happy, unfortunately. Boggling, from my experience thus far, is the surefire way to tell if the rat is happy. Bruxing can indicate fear or happiness, it's up to you to look at the body language and decide what the cause may be. Fearful bruxing will consist of a rat that's body is stiff and even seems a little like "deer in highlights." Often their ears are perked, eyes are wide open, and there may be head swaying involved (especially if the rat has red versus black eyes). Happy bruxing sometimes leads to boggles, but the rat is typically relaxed, ears are relaxed, there is no sign of alarm. For me, happy bruxing usually means the rat is really love the petting and scratching I'm doing, or they're just happy to be there and will just sort of... puddle out on or in front of me. My late Gideon would often brux and boggle, and then fall asleep on my chest.

Another sign that a rat is scared is when they vibrate or tremble. At least from my timid rats (such as Owen for the brief moments he is handled for any longer than transportation), they typically vibrate and then brux. It can be the other way around as well.

As SQ said, introductions may have gone too quickly. Rats that squeak when others touch them or walk past are often terrified and have had some negative experiences with other rats, and it sometimes only takes one negative experience. When I was doing introductions between my rats and two new rescues, Owen tried to power groom them, and they now squeak whenever there's contact, so introductions have been restarted. I also then drop in a ton of treats when they're close to each other. If Zac was the lowest ranking male rat, he may have also been bullied or bitten by the other rats. Those lowest ranking rats can become frustrated and become aggressive towards cagemates.

Rats that are stressed may also have a slow response to change. For me, Owen and Peter handled three new babies perfectly in multiple, multiple, multiple introductions, but then month after the babies had moved in, the bullying started.

Since there have been bites and he is following them up cage walls, I'd first recommend res-starting the entire introduction process. Before you proceed to next steps, insure there is NO puffy fur, posturing (usually males will lift their butts up high and then bump hips at each other as sort of an intimidation tactic), and there is no squeaking. When I do introductions, and everything seems to be going accordingly, I'll still do the same step multiple times to make sure everything is going well. If this doesn't work and he continues to be aggressive, I'd then recommend separating him and scheduling a neuter.

 

[Racholo]

Bruxing doesn't always necessarily mean the rat is happy, unfortunately. Boggling, from my experience thus far, is the surefire way to tell if the rat is happy. Bruxing can indicate fear or happiness, it's up to you to look at the body language and decide what the cause may be. Fearful bruxing will consist of a rat that's body is stiff and even seems a little like "deer in highlights." Often their ears are perked, eyes are wide open, and there may be head swaying involved (especially if the rat has red versus black eyes). Happy bruxing sometimes leads to boggles, but the rat is typically relaxed, ears are relaxed, there is no sign of alarm. For me, happy bruxing usually means the rat is really love the petting and scratching I'm doing, or they're just happy to be there and will just sort of... puddle out on or in front of me. My late Gideon would often brux and boggle, and then fall asleep on my chest.

Another sign that a rat is scared is when they vibrate or tremble. At least from my timid rats (such as Owen for the brief moments he is handled for any longer than transportation), they typically vibrate and then brux. It can be the other way around as well.

As SQ said, introductions may have gone too quickly. Rats that squeak when others touch them or walk past are often terrified and have had some negative experiences with other rats, and it sometimes only takes one negative experience. When I was doing introductions between my rats and two new rescues, Owen tried to power groom them, and they now squeak whenever there's contact, so introductions have been restarted. I also then drop in a ton of treats when they're close to each other. If Zac was the lowest ranking male rat, he may have also been bullied or bitten by the other rats. Those lowest ranking rats can become frustrated and become aggressive towards cagemates.

Rats that are stressed may also have a slow response to change. For me, Owen and Peter handled three new babies perfectly in multiple, multiple, multiple introductions, but then month after the babies had moved in, the bullying started.

Since there have been bites and he is following them up cage walls, I'd first recommend res-starting the entire introduction process. Before you proceed to next steps, insure there is NO puffy fur, posturing (usually males will lift their butts up high and then bump hips at each other as sort of an intimidation tactic), and there is no squeaking. When I do introductions, and everything seems to be going accordingly, I'll still do the same step multiple times to make sure everything is going well. If this doesn't work and he continues to be aggressive, I'd then recommend separating him and scheduling a neuter.

It was happy bruxing as they were eating and relaxed to the side ears.
But definitely a big lesson learnt here for me, thankfully no one has been badly hurt.
Thank you all for your advice and not having a go at me for fast integration.
I'll restart the process and see how we go

 

[jorats]

It could very well be he's coming into his own and wants to bully the colony. I'd let him do his thing unless he starts to attack and draw blood. If he does that, it's time for a neuter.

 

[Dena]

It was happy bruxing as they were eating and relaxed to the side ears.
But definitely a big lesson learnt here for me, thankfully no one has been badly hurt.
Thank you all for your advice and not having a go at me for fast integration.
I'll restart the process and see how we go

It's always different with every mischief. What may be too fast for some, isn't for others. So no reason to jump on you for doing what you thought was right for your clan.

 

[Racholo]

It's funny that you say that as since posting this thread he's been totally sweet.
No more fights except a bit of wrestling here and there.
No puffed up fur.
I'll take the advice and see how we go as they have been getting along really well the last 24 hours, and I'd feel horrible separating him from everyone now they are looking to be getting along.

 

[ViciousCurse]

Sorry if my post came off as like I was jumping on you! I totally didn't mean it that way. I'm glad they were hapoy bruxing. It took me a quick second to realize all bruxing doesn't necessarily mean the rat is happy.

I'm glad there's been improvement! Fingers crossed it remains that way!

 

[Racholo]

Sorry if my post came off as like I was jumping on you! I totally didn't mean it that way. I'm glad they were hapoy bruxing. It took me a quick second to realize all bruxing doesn't necessarily mean the rat is happy.

I'm glad there's been improvement! Fingers crossed it remains that way!

I didn't take it that way at all!
Many people don't know, and it was kind of you to take the time out to explain.