Hognose snake

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This is a rat rescue forum .... so that is the "political climate" you are in.

Many of us have rescued rats from snake owners and seen horrifying things. In my experience the reptiles are treated almost as badly as the rats.

I use an anonymous email address because of threats from snake owners and know of someone who also had his wife and children threatened.

Any rats I have ever seen that lived in a household, ;lived in terror and exhibited very different behaviour and personalities once removed and put into a safe environment

Steph, for the sake of your rats, other animals, your peace of mind, conscious etc please do not get a snake
The best way to enjoy a snake is to visit wild snakes in their natural habitat, like having a wild indigenous snake living in your yard ... that happens naturally down here, you just don't make the environment such that they have to move on. Don't know about where you live.
 
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SQ

What makes you feel that?
Furthermore, *all* of our domesticated pets were wild once too...but following your logic would mean they would never be here at all.
I am a big proponent of large enclosures (outdoors if possible), lots of exercise, natural sunlight when possible and appropriate diets and enrichment. Doing so, they do not, barring human romanticized notions about 'the wild', lack anything at all. They have optimal temperatures, all the food they could want, medical attention, no predators and (if you're doing it right) large safe enclosures.
But I think if we are to use your reasoning than no one should have cats or dogs or rats either, for we are confining them in captivity and as I have said, it is hypocritical to think it's not ok to keep a ball python in a cage (who arguably more suitable to living in a cage) but do the same to a rat.
 
The forum ate the rest of my reply.

SQ....I am sorry that you have had to deal with the ugly side of the reptile community. Arguably every community has one. But don't tar us all with the same brush. I actually rescue most of my reptiles and have dealt with the ugliness first hand.

I love my rats. DO NOT insinuate otherwise. I have given them the same love and attention and vet care and concern any of my other critters gets.
I abhor the romanticized anthropomorphism that comes with peoples' feelings about reptiles.
Is it right, by that train of thought, to keep any animal as a pet? No...yet we keep rats, dogs, cats and etc.
Like any animal, being a pet comes at a price, but the key is the best enclosures, care and enrichment we can give.

Anyhoo, to avoid repeating myself. I am a reptile owner, rat lover, concerned for the welfare of my fellow other species and meat-eater....to me, none of those contradict the others.

I don't want to cause any further issues for the OP or get the topic closed, so I'll stand down from this point on.
But...my love for rats does not cause a hatred or disgust for reptiles or place rats on a pedestal above all other forms of life.
I am very proud to have taken some very loved members of my mischief as those who were dumped/abandoned...but I'm beginning to find this place sorta alienating and hostile. Which is sad...I don't deserve to be a pariah.
 
You make valid points, and I can respect that, but what really sets rats, cats, and dogs apart from reptiles is that our furry friends DO seek out human interaction. They are not our prisoners. They are our friends.

I can definitely appreciate the effort you are making to make your snakes' lives more enriched and natural. You are not one of the bad snake owners, but that seems to be the majority of snake owners us rat rescuers come in contact with, so it's no wonder we are not too fond of them.
 
Cats dogs rats etc have been domesticated and can not survive in the wild.
That is a huge difference.

And actually I think that they should stop breeding animals like rats, types of chickens, types of dogs, etc as most have horrible lives.
So I agree, most domesticated animals do not belong in captivity, should not be in captivity and I believe that the way to end the torment of their species is to stop breeding them in captivity. I would prefer to never have a pet rat again if it meant an end to the suffering.

As for reptiles, they are wild animals or captive bred wild animals and should be rehabbed and release back into their natural environments, or humanely killed.
One life is not more important then hundreds or thousands of other lives and keeping reptiles in captivity is not only cruel to them but causes the torture, abuse and murder of hundreds of animals.
 
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SQ you must realize your view is an extremist one. I am a little upset that you suggest my snake (Mortimer) whom I've had for 8 years should be humanely killed simply because he has lived his entire life in captivity and cannot be rehabbed. Snakes are carnivores. So are cats. Cats cannot survive on a vegetarian diet and animals must be killed for their food; how is that "less bad" than the mice that my snake has to eat?

edit - I know you're probably going to reply with "oh cats can eat vegan" you should do more research on the urine troubles male cats can have if their urine is not the proper pH. Even http://vegancats.com/ recommends male cats have some meat in their diet to regulate their urine pH. Also, if you're arguing about "being natural," given that both animals are now already in captivity, feeding a snake a whole un-processed mouse is a lot more "natural" than the synthetic processed crap that people shove into vegan cat foods to attempt to replicate something that's already working for them. "Naturally speaking" the cat should be eating the whole un-processed mouse as well.
 
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I checked your link, they are recommending some meat IF the owners will not feed the cats a balanced vegan diet.
ie according to their site cats can be vegan and thrive if their owners feed them a proper diet
Additives to vegan cat food are the same additives put into other types of cat food.
I am unsure about cats being vegan, therefore I do not live with any cats

One life is not more important then hundreds or thousands of other lives and I do not believe in supporting animal abuse.
 
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Mia--- I do understand. I have spent many a night treating respiratory infections, malnutrition, treating burns, mites, abscesses and so many other results of neglect and abuse as well---just my saved souls happen to be scaley. I once had a little gecko so stunted and neurologically damaged (in part due to bad genetic breeding) that he was the size of a hatchling when he came to me at 9 months of age---he had seizures/fits and couldn't hunt on his own. But with some handfeeding, daily soaks and electrolytes he started to come around and he grew to be a wonderful animal. He needed that specialized care for the rest of his life---but he got it.
I think it's really important to realize that reptile people/owning reptiles is not the issue, but irresponsible people who own reptiles. Whether rats/cats/lizards/dogs...these people would cause bad reputations, outrage and suffering wherever they go.

Reptiles are capable of far more intelligence, learning, personality and feelings than most people give them credit for or know about. They recognize and prefer certain people and some will ask to be let out of their enclosures. They will willingly approach and investigate people and some of the larger lizards seem to enjoy being petted.
No reptile has ever been my prisoner---and if living in a cage/in someone's home is the definition then human-loving or not, all animals we keep are prisoners. I mean....would it seem worth it to you to be locked in a room (even with all your 'things' and stuff to do) and only let out when your friend dictates (even if when they let you out you have an awesome time)? No matter how much I love someone---personally to me it's not worth it.
For me---to the reptiles I am a much beloved maid and butler/driver---I keep them clean, bring them food, keep their surroundings perfect and take them wherever and whenever they enjoy so long as it's possible.

SQ---

Is it not abusive to kill/hate an animal for the natural unchangeable thing that it is?
Out in the wild that reptile is still killing and eating rodents---unless you believe that all predators should be wiped off the earth (which would in the end cause immeasurable suffering to the prey animals not kept in balance)?
Many reptiles *cannot* be rehabbed and in the case of most of the pet reptiles these are non-native species who would be invasive on an environmental level AND would suffer terribly and would not survive. Yes in some small and isolated 'perfect storm' scenarios (like Florida) they can and do establish themselves (not without losses of course)...but really how realistic is that in most places? I can guarantee you if I let my bearded dragon and ball python out into 'the wilds' of Montreal (or anywhere in Quebec) that it would be a cruel death and suffering.
ALSO---most reptiles are equally 'domesticated' in the sense that they depend on people for food and shelter. They don't know how to hibernate properly, about predators, to find food...and if you think that they should be released anyway then we might as well put all the cats/dogs/rats out there anyway too. Plus I am sure you could rehab a cat or dog or rat.

As for cruelty-free diets...no diet, no matter how vegan is inherently cruelty free.

Lives don't become inherently more valuable or deserving of protection the more there are. Every life is sacred to the individual to whom it belongs and it is only natural for that organism (and their right) to do what they need to do to survive, which in the case of a predator means eating meat. Unfortunately that means some organisms lose theirs when others preserve theirs. Everything on the planet takes the life of something (even if it's 'just a plant') in order to survive.
Whether captive or wild a snake will eat rodents----the difference is that the rodent has a chance to be euthanized prior to consumption (thus given the most gentle death it can be) AND have a much safer, cleaner, healthier environment and good nutrition for the length of life it has before being killed to be eaten.
No one, especially not me, is against fighting to promote good rearing, housing and slaughtering practices for any animal (including rats) who is a food source to another organism.
 
Everyone has an opinion and they are entitled to it. The original post was specific and it seems to have been addressed and nothing more is needed.
Trying to convince each other that the other person's feelings are wrong is pointless. Lets move on please.
 
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