HELP! Tonight's Intro's Went Very Badly . . .

[PiedPiper]

. . . and poor little Rooi ended up with a gash on his side. :sad3:

To re-cap, last night I moved the R695 where the babies are housed down into the Rat Room next to the big boys' FN (but not within touching distance). Today, I dabbed them all with vanilla, put them in the bathtub with a big pan of banana flavoured pablum, armed myself with a towel, a thick pair of gloves and a thin book, set the timer for five minutes and prayed that it all would go well. Well, my prayers went unanswered. There was a lot of milling around and sniffing for about 4 minutes and 55 seconds and then all hell broke loose. When it was over, the big boys were all foofed up to about five times their normal size and the poor babies were frozen in place like statues. It was only when I started frantically gathering up the babies to put them back in their carrier that I noticed that we had an injury.

Poor Rooi "seems" to be okay. He is eating and carrying on like normal. His gash is no longer bleeding. I did try to clean him up as best I could but he still looks a mess. So what happens now? Do we stop for a while? Do we continue? Do the boys kiss their spectacular sets of goolies goodbye? We're all very shaken and my confidence in myself has just been shattered. I feel terrible that I could have allowed this to happen. I'm a wreck. :cry3:

Help.

 

[lilspaz68]

Awwww...sweetie! Things like this happen to the best of us. Did you figure out who was the most aggressive rat of the older boys? Rats heal incredibly well and fast from small wounds so don't worry too much about Rooi in that respect.

How old are the babies now? Maybe wait a bit longer for intro's until they are big enough to handle themselves better?

 

[user 78]

It's okay. Eat some chocolate, cake, cookies. Whatever is your Comfort Food, pig out a little. Take some deep breaths. Little Rooi should be fine. Just keep an eye on the gash and watch for an abscess.

All hope is not lost, and it doesn't mean they'll never get along. You may have just rushed things just a bit. Moving the cages side by side was a good first step, but you missed a couple of the next steps. Switching bedding and hammocks from one cage to the other and switching rats from one cage to another. Since the other cages are thoroughly smelling of their resident rats, the "new" rats in the cage get more used to the smell. This doesn't mean that they'll be okay when they meet face to face, but they won't be all "Intruder! Intruder!" when they do meet. Do each of those steps for about a week. Since there's been an injury, I would take it a bit more slowly than I normally would. If, after all of this, they go after each other again, then you may want to consider neutering the instigator.

It'll be okay, sweetie!

 

[user 78]

Oh, wait, Shelagh has a point. How old are all the babies now? I was thinking they're somewhere around 4-5mo, but maybe I'm wrong?

 

[PiedPiper]

Awwww...sweetie! Things like this happen to the best of us. Did you figure out who was the most aggressive rat of the older boys?

<sob!> No! It all happened so fast . . . I didn't see any sidling, arching, foofing, poofing, etc. any of those warning type behaviours . . . they all, just all of a sudden exploded into this great big mass of squeaking, squealing rats! It was just awful!

Rats heal incredibly well and fast from small wounds so don't worry too much about Rooi in that respect.

Well . . . okay. Are you sure I shouldn't try to apply some Polysporin or something to it?

How old are the babies now? Maybe wait a bit longer for intro's until they are big enough to handle themselves better?

I'm not sure, but I think Mokka and Zen (Clark's boys) are about 12 weeks old (but they're still really tiny) and Rooi and Keemun (Holly's boys) are about 10 weeks (they're a good size).

 

[PiedPiper]

It's okay. Eat some chocolate, cake, cookies. Whatever is your Comfort Food, pig out a little. Take some deep breaths. Little Rooi should be fine. Just keep an eye on the gash and watch for an abscess.

I think I need vodka . . . and lots of it!

All hope is not lost, and it doesn't mean they'll never get along. You may have just rushed things just a bit. Moving the cages side by side was a good first step, but you missed a couple of the next steps. Switching bedding and hammocks from one cage to the other and switching rats from one cage to another. Since the other cages are thoroughly smelling of their resident rats, the "new" rats in the cage get more used to the smell. This doesn't mean that they'll be okay when they meet face to face, but they won't be all "Intruder! Intruder!" when they do meet. Do each of those steps for about a week. Since there's been an injury, I would take it a bit more slowly than I normally would. If, after all of this, they go after each other again, then you may want to consider neutering the instigator.

Yes, okay - I'll do that. One thing I forgot to ask was - the Rat Room is also the big boys playroom. Last night during their out time they kept trying to crawl onto the R695, but I kept redirecting them because I didn't want to chance anybody's fingers, toes, or tails getting bitten through the wire. Should I allow them to or keep redirecting their attention? By the way, the little boys have not been allowed to free range in the playroom. Their out time is still on Natalie's bed.

It'll be okay, sweetie!

Thanks, Kat - but right now, I'm feeling like the worst Rat Mom that ever lived.

 

[PiedPiper]

Oh, wait, Shelagh has a point. How old are all the babies now? I was thinking they're somewhere around 4-5mo, but maybe I'm wrong?

No, they're only about 10 to 12 weeks old! Is that too young? I thought it was the younger, the better. Did I get that wrong?

 

[jorats]

How old are the big boys?
Do not allow the big boys to climb the baby boys' cage... but do allow the baby boys to play in the rat play area so they can put their scent and the big boys will "get used" to having them there. The fact that it was within the first 5 minutes is not good so I would hold off for now, maybe do at least a month of separate out times but in the same area.

This happens a lot...just means you'll have to be more patient. :wink2:

 

[user 78]

Generally, yes, the younger the better is a good rule. But since the older boys seem to want to be grumps, I'd give it a few more weeks. Just keep doing the switches and that during this time. Waiting until the little ones beef up and grow up some - maybe until they're around the 3-4mo range.

Definitely don't allow the older boys to climb the cage. Someone will get hurt. If you can ensure that the little ones can't get to the big boys, you can let them play in the Rat Room.

It sounds like someone may have just pushed someone else. In such a tense situation, it literally only takes a single poke for someone to totally wig out. It sounds like someone reacted, isntead of acting. That's a good thing, means no one was *trying* to be aggressive.

Go have yourself a vodka if you have some on hand. My very first intro, I went through 3 bags of dark chocolate candies.

 

[PiedPiper]

Jo, the big boys are about eight months old (I know, their hormones are probably raging, hunh? Not a good time to be attempting intro's :doh: I just thought, the younger the babies were, the more apt Earl, Chai and Tazi would be to accept them. Boy! Did I ever get that wrong!)

Thanks for the advice. I'll let the little guys have access to the playroom, but definitely won't let the big boys climb on their cage.

Thanks so much for talking me through this. You gals are a godsend.

 

[SQ]

I second? Third? what has been said.
Keeping the cages next to each other but far enough apart so they can't reach one another is important. As is switching dirty cloths.
They need to get used to one another and each others scent.
After a few weeks to a month and no one is showing signs of aggression toward the other group, they will be ready to try intros in neutral territory again.

 

[PiedPiper]

Oh, yes! I'll definitely be taking it a LOT slower. After a few weeks to a month of no one showing signs of aggression toward the other group, THEY might be ready to try intros in neutral territory again, but I'm not so sure *I* will be.

I'm so sorry I let this happen to one of your babies, Holly! :cry3:

 

[user 78]

Aww, hun! It's just one of those things. Even Shelagh, The Almighty One, has had intros go badly before. All of the rats that you have are very sweet natured. I honestly don't think that anyone was being aggressive, just that someone got spooked at the last minute. Just don't beat yourself up over this.

 

[PiedPiper]

Thanks Kat. I can't tell you how much your (all of your) support means to me. I really feel awful about this - didn't sleep at all last night, kept getting up to check on him over and over again. It was definitely one of those, "if I could just turn back time" days.

I have one quick question before I rush off to work (I'll log on as soon as I get there to check for a response), but . . . is it possible for an abscess to develop overnight? My poor little man has just now forgiven me enough to take a treat from my hand and I noticed a definite swelling close to one of his armpits. Not quite at the bite site, but close to it. IS THIS AN ABSCESS?!? Or could this just be the swelling/bruising one would normally expect to see after sustaining that kind of injury?

Thanks again for all your help and support.

 

[jorats]

It can definitely be an abscess.

I want to add something... I wouldn't put anything that belongs to the newbies in the older boys cage. Putting in old fleece from the babies can really set them off and stress the bullies right out. Their cage is their home and they shouldn't have to deal with that stress, not yet.

 

[user 78]

Jo, I don't think that anyone was being aggressive or being a bully. There was no aggressive move on anyone's part until the very end, when someone most likely just got spooked by something. You know how it is, someone bumps into someone else, and they fly off the handle. Of course, if the older boys react badly to the switched cloths other than the usual stuff, she shouldn't continue that and we'll sort out a different plan of action from there.

 

[jorats]

The scuffling started in the first 5 minutes of being together despite there being food there. So I really do think this may very well be some type of aggression, especially with the older rats being 8 months old. That is the prime age for them to flex their muscle and win.

 

[PiedPiper]

Kat - my gut tells me that Jo may be on to something. I offered a nice, big pan of yummy banana flavoured pablum in the bathtub last night. This is not something they would usually get and is considered a high value treat to them and yet it was completely ignored. Neither Earl, Chai or Tazo showed ANY INTEREST in it whatsoever and they are normally big time chow hounds (rats). None of the rats ate anything at all. I suppose I should've taken that as a warning sign, hunh? My big boys ARE sweet squishes, but I think they're probably at the worst possible age for me to be attempting this.

Jo - Let's test your theory - I think what I'll do is go ahead with the switching of used fleece and watch carefully for any signs of stress amongst the big boys. If the presence of the baby fleece in their cage seems to be upsetting them, I'll stop and we'll have to come up with a Plan B . . . something like you, Kat and Shelagh can come over to my house and do the intro's while I go on vacation and ya'll can just call me when everyone is living in peace and harmony.

Does everyone agree that it's okay for the babies to have out time in the boys' play area? Or should I just hold off on that for a while? Is it okay for the baby-TEAs to live next door to the big-TEAs? Or should I move them out again? What about putting big-TEAs fleece in with the baby-TEAs? Is that okay?

Getting back to Rooi's wound - we seriously are going on vacation next week. Should Rooi see the vet? Natalie will be in charge of their care, but she doesn't drive and I would hate for her to have to deal with a crisis.

I'm so sorry about this long, long post. I'm just terrified about making another bad mistake.

 

[jorats]

My opinion is that the babies cage should be beside the big boys cage.
I also agree that the babies should play where the big boys play.
As for the wound, check it over tonight, if it's clearly an abscess, then I would get him on Baytril. If not, just flush it and keep an eye on it.

 

[user 78]

I've used baby cereal, which is an all time favorite around here, in all of my intros. No one has ever immediately gone straight to chowing down on it in the first meeting. They had to smell everyone, some grooming, some pinning, even a tussle. It wasn't until everyone had settled down that anyone did more than take a sniff or two of the cereal.

The fact the older boys made no aggressive moves prior to the scuffle, I'm not 100% sold that it was aggression on their part. Gina, you said you saw no sidling, no poofing, no chattering.. Nothing that said 'I'm not happy about this.' The fight just erupted out of nowhere. While I know that fights can break out without much warning, if they were that aggressive not to even try switching hammocks, why no warnings? The cages are near to each other, but they're not huffing and poofing at the bars. So, no, I'm not 100% sold that it's aggression. If they react badly to a hammock switch - as in they become chattering evil Teademons - then I'd be more convinced, at which point other options will have to be taken.

Yes, I think you should switch everyone's cloth around, Baby to Big Boy and Big Boy to Baby. If the Big Boys become chattering, poofy demons, then don't switch the babies' stuff in there just yet. Keep their cages near each other, since smelling them in the room will get them accustomed to their scent, to an extent. Same goes for everyone having the same play area, just different times. Make sure the little ones can't get to the big cage. Like I said previously, it'll help with the whole "OMG! Intruder!" reaction.

You could go ahead and start Rooi on a low dose of Baytril if it is an abscess, and it may resolve itself with no need for any further treatment. If it doesn't resolve itself, the most Nat would have to do is apply a warm compress to help it come to a head, and flush it with a saline solution after it's popped. Even if she doesn't feel up to that, he'll be fine with just the Baytril until you get home to do it.