Dominance or bullying? - Its got worse!!

[ryelle]

I'm just wondering what sort of behaviour classes as just normal dominance and what would be classed as bullying. I came down the other night and my mum and brother were doing something over near the rat cage. It turned out that they were sat watching T.V and heard a lot of ratty screams and ran in and there was a ratball rolling around. They seperated them, and Sid had a deep claw mark right in the centre of his shoulders.

Sidian (Sid) is coming up 21 months old, and Patrick is 5 months old (20 weeks exactly). I got Patrick when he was 6 weeks old, and the boys have been living together for 10 weeks now.

This is what Patrick does to Sid:

-Pins his head to the floor
-Flips him over and pins him (Sid has scratches on his arms now)
-Powergrooms Sid if you give him any attention
-Powergrooms Sid if you seperate either of them for a few minutes
-Marks the WHOLE cage - even more so if theres anything new in there or its been rearranged
-Sits in the food bowl so Sid cant get any food
-Sometimes he doesn't let Sid move up the levels in the cage
-Steals food from him
-Walks over and urinates on Sid's head (this disgusts me )
-if they are out of the cage Patrick constantly pins him and pushes him around

They've just recently been treated for mites and show no other sign of illness or stress. Im changing vets (some of you have probably read the post about it) and they'll be going in for a general check-up.

Should i be getting concerned for poor old Sid? Id get another rat if i could, to maybe give Patrick someone to play with etc. but im not allowed If i wasnt back at my mums i would, but ill be here for a while so its not possible. Patrick does spend a fair bit of time outside and burns off a lot of energy exploring and in his ferret ball.

Think im making a mountain out of a mole-hill? How can i tell if he does go too far?

 

[jorats]

The best way to know is to observe how Sid is reacting to Patrick. Does he cower, does he run and hide from him or does he allow young Patrick to treat him this way, like he doesn't really care about it?

Patrick sounds like a typical teenager, claiming everything as his even Sid. Some older rats don't mind and allow the young ones to go through this phase, others may become quite scared.

 

[ryelle]

I'm off to the supermarket later on and im going to pick up a packet of baby wipes like you mentioned in another post, because Sid absolutely stinks!! and its all Patricks doing.
Sid wasn't so botherd at first and i think he quite enjoyed the attention he was getting, but lately hes started cowering a bit if Patrick comes near him. Iv just walked in to the dining room where the rat cage is and Sid was laid on his back in the litter tray with one hand in the air almost cowering while Patrick stood over him. Sid is a nervous rat anyway and rarely wants to come out. When he is outside he hides under something and doesnt come out. But he is normally confident in his cage and prefers to be there :?

 

[SQ]

Wondering if Patrick might need a neuter ....

 

[ryelle]

Im not sure how neutering works here, or how much the cost would be etc. At the minute im unemployed, living at my parents while paying rent and bills on an empty house in another town (cant get rid of it until April), and i barely have enough cash to live. When i get a job, and if it is more bullying, then it would be something to consider.

I also forgot to mention, that he grunts when i pick him up. I was concerned it was a resp. infection but his breathing is fine and there is no wheezing. Hes only a baby though, so could it just be a phase?

 

[jorats]

Yes, that would be my first thought...a phase, let him get through his teenage antics, at about 7 to 10 months, he should settle down or it may get worse. If it gets worse, that would be time to think of a neuter.

 

[ryelle]

O.k. thanks A neuter would have to be last resort for my rats unfortunately

 

[lj]

Lets just hope he "grows up" so to speak.

 

[ryelle]

I'm sat in my living room, and i hear this awful noise. I think it's my mum out in the garden with an electric saw or something. Then i think "That sounds like Rats... OH CRAP!". I run into the dining room, and Sid is upside down under the ladder that goes to the first level. Patrick is on the ladder and Sid is screaming his head off. I think he got stuck on his back (hes a big boy) and i thought he was panicking. I open the cage door to put Sid back on his front and Patrick runs over to Sid and starts pushing him. I literally picked Patrick out and threw (not in a nasty way, the couch is in front of the cage - it was more of a drop than a throw i suppose) him onto the couch. I manage to get Sid back on to his front and he RAN up the ladder and jumped straight into my arms and started frantically trying to climb up my front on to my shoulder. I put Patrick back in the cage and had to hug Sid for 5 minutes until he calmed down. Sid doesn't like coming outside, and he doesn't really like being held. So the fact that he ran into my arms doesnt show anything good. He was so scared.

I put him on my bed with his favourite hammock and box bed and a bowl of food. And its about half an hour later and i just discovered why he was so scared :sad3:

He is sliced to bits

They are all fresh. They aren't bleeding loads, but the skin has been broken and a few layers of skin has been removed on some. One of them is atleast 2 inches long and goes all the way down his side. He is staying on my bed today. Im getting a litter tray up for him and some water. My spare cage is over at the other house and theres no way i can get it - so i dont know what to do tonight.

I Need some help I havent checked Patrick over yet but i imagine he has very little, if any, marks on him. What do i do? :sad3:

 

[jorats]

Darn... Patrick is a right bully. One good thing, those marks are from their nails and not right out bite marks so that means he's not aggressive just being a jerk.
Can you separate the cage in two, keep one rat at the top and one in the bottom and during out time they meet and play together? After a while like this, it may be that you can try to put them back together in a month or two.

 

[ryelle]

I checked Patrick and he is fine :wallbang: He was laid in the hammock and wouldn't budge. My mum said she doesnt understand it, because they eat and sleep together, and then something like this happens. They even miss each other and get upset if you seperate them (althought at the minute Sid seems happier to be on his own. Hes eating some cheese sandwich and chilling out). Do you think it could have anything to do with the fact that we moved house 4 weeks ago? They were fine until lately.

I was wanting to wipe Sid down with a damp cloth because his face is brown where Patrick has been peeing on him, but now i don't know if it will make the scratches sting.

The two wooden levels in the cage i might be able to put at the same level and theres only a 3 inch gap - and then find something to block the gap. Sid can live at the top and Patrick at the bottom. The cage isnt overly big though so i hope they have enough room for two 'apartments' in there, even if its just for a short time

Oh my poor Sid :sad3:

 

[jorats]

They seem to miss each other? That's good!
How many times a day would you say that Patrick goes after Sid?

 

[ryelle]

He grooms Sid frantically and pins him every time hes out of the hammock, but its getting to almost every day or every two days where we are hearing screaming (its not even a squeak anymore) coming from the cage. Sid had a big scratch on his side last week that has just cleared up. It was nothing compared to what he has today though. If they are both outside at the same time though Patrick goes overboard and hes constantly pinning Sid and wont let him move. They rarely come out at the same time because Sid would rather be inside, but when they do, Sid just hides under whatever he can find. My poor boy was bullied by my last rat aswell and had some really bad bites when he was only a bub

This was them before the fighting started today:

(Sid is the bluey-grey guy at the bottom, and Patrick is the Berk standing on him)

 

[jorats]

In the pics, Sid doesn't look scared more like fed up. You might be able to get away with separating them for a few hours a day. Patrick doesn't look aggressive at all, he just needs to play hard with a younger boy, I think. I bet if Sid would flip him just once, he'd slow down.
When you catch Patrick pinning Sid, can you flip Patrick over and put Sid over him and hold him there for a few seconds.

 

[ryelle]

Ok, i will try flipping him over if they start up again. Ill split the cage up tonight to give Sids scratches time to scab over and give him a break from the little menace. I wish Sid would flip him, i really do. Hes such a push over though, as soon as he thinks hes going to get a groom or a cuddle he turns to mush. They dont spend every hour of each day with each other though. Patricks out as soon as he wakes up, and he has free roam of the table and the couch for atleast an hour, then hes either in a ferret ball, getting smooched by the family, sending me out my mind by getting on the floor, or torturing me while i try sit at my computer. Sid either just watches from the hammock and has no intention of moving, or if hes near the door and i can grab him, he will sit on the other couch

 

[jorats]

That's good that Sid has quite some time away from Patrick... ok, so I'm back to thinking that it's just Patrick playing too hard with him.

 

[mercurydust]

Wow what a meanie. I think you could also try trimming Patricks's nails so they are so aren't so dagger like. I had a big problem when I introed my two newer girls into the big cage with Cordelia and Lucy. Cordelia really couldn't care less, but Lucy was just an outright bully. Poor little Noelle had bites on her ears and tail....and being a scared mommy I still left them to their business. Stella didn't seem to have a problem fending for herself, but I was worried about Noelle. So what I started doing when Lucy was being nasty was seperating her her from the group-sounds mean but I would pick her up by the skin on the back of the neck like a mommy would do to a naughty rattie, talk to her with a firm voice, and then put her in a time out cage. I know some bullying is natural and is a neccassary thing in order to establish their hierarchy, but some bullying was going to far. It took a few weeks, but all four girls are now living in harmony.

 

[ryelle]

Ive just finished splitting the cage in two. Took a while, but we got there in the end.

Patrick is in the bottom. He seems a little annoyed with me lol. I think he will probably figure out how to get up top by the end of the night. It doesnt look like has much room, but he has the tray at the bottom which is very deep. Im just trying to find the clips for the bed i want to put in with Patrick and then he has some chew toys underneath the ramp.
They are both getting a nail trim tomorrow and Sid will be getting a half-bath, so i dont irritate his scratches, but enough to get the pee off him. Hopefully he will feel better. My boyfriend said he noticed Sid never wants to come outside and rarely comes out of his hammock, so time away from Patrick might make him semi-normal again lol

 

[jorats]

That looks quite alright for now... this might make Patrick rethink his behavior.

 

[ryelle]

Hopefully. Just a little annoyed that hes done this - i spent HOURS last week re-arranging the cage so that it would fit their Wheel in it, and now ive had to rearrange it again because Patrick cant behave himself lol

I have to go past a health store last tomorrow and was just wondering if its worth putting Aloe Vera ointment on Sids scratches or not?