Do you think rats have a female or male dominated society?

[Rodentist]

I started out with all male ratties because my first accidental rat was male, and everyone else was a friend for Hadrian. I neutered them for both longevity and increased peace in the enclosure. I'll also admit...I love me a big ol' squishy boy!

Then some of two of my friends called from the local SPCA to tell me they had a neutered male there. Since neutering is about $200 here, and I know what happens to ratties at the SPCA...I got a carrier and drove over. When I got there...and first noticed the little face peeking out from an igloo...I thought...hmmm....thats a girlie face!(as an aside....after getting used to looking at rats....they really do look different...girls look....girlier.) A volunteer pointed to the sign that said male, as if that was the final word. I had them take her out...and GIRL! They still didn't believe me. They made the vet look again...who certified her a girl.

<---Arya! Looking for back issues of Bon Appetit!


I had come all that way! I even had a carrier! She was sooo freakin' cute...and at the SPCA...how long would a rat last?

So I took her home. EVERYTHING changed. Everything I thought I had figured about rat social interactions, even introductions, changed.

I didn't want to put her in the three story FN with the boys because I thought they would rip her apart, she was so little, so she was in the room with them, but in her own cage. One of the males just stared at her all night, all day. I would turn on the light at 4 am, and there he would be, mooning in the direction of her cage. When I added her to the section with Milton and Newton in it....she just took over! If she fuffed or did anything, they would just roll over and let her do...whatever she wanted. She was 1/3 of their size...and they let her take food out of their hands...and did NOTHING.

Then came Mama Cassandra and her three boys. Little Mama was in a separate house, the three boys were in a separate house until their neuters, well, 10 days after their neuters. Mama was returned to a pet store when they found out she was knocked up, at a very young age....she was malnourished and tiny. I was going to do proper intros...work them up to it and all, but the very first time I let her out to roam the room, she walked right over to the ferret nation, squeezed though the bars, into an igloo, and wouldn't leave. The boys did NOTHING.

Now I have a colony with 10 rats in the three story FN. Six boys, and 4 girls. (The five Liverpool boys are in the living room, awaiting neutering, no cage can contain Mama and we don't want accidents) We always hear about alpha males, but who really rules the roost? The lowliest female can rip food out of the biggest, toughest males hands without fear, at least in my colony.

Do I have wussy boys? How come all the rat studies I have seen assume male domination? Is it because the researchers are male, and ignore evidence that maybe...just maybe...the females are in charge, and use the males for protection and procreation?

My colony appears to be controlled by "Mama", the permanently stunted 300 gram Mama. I have seen her call her three boys for reinforcement when needed. If there is a newcomer, and mama likes them, the residents just deal. She is currently keeping the hairless ladies in place, but has to do nothing to the males....all of whom are at *least* twice her size.

<--Mama! Adorable! Photogenic! Controls a colony of 10!

Arya is my explorer...she marches to the beat of her own drum and she is the only one who can over-rule Mama, but she has no interest what so ever in colony management. It would get in her way of what she really wants to do...get out, explore and chew Bon Appetit magazines.

So...what are your experiences with mixed colonies? Is it the ladies? Does it depend? Are my boys just big, lazy wusses?

 

[Dahlas]

Your rats are so beautiful...what very gorgeous kids........ :heart:

In my cage I have one male, unneutered because he is to old (Tory), three neutered males, and 8 spayed females.....and my smallest female, who is the mother to the three neutered boys and six spayed girls, is the boss. She is not a bossy girl she is just confident.......If she wants to eat she pushes in and everyone moves over....if she wants to sleep they make room.........She is the only one who gave Tory a hard time when he joined the cage....It looks hilarious because he is more then double her size...but she can put him over on his back....She doesn't bite him just pushes him over and he will lay very still until she lets him up.....Poor boy.

 

[jorats]

I've always had mixed colonies but my alpha's were always a male but... the girls could do what they wanted and when they wanted. I just love watching them, better than TV!

 

[lilspaz68]

I have only had neutered boys with my intact or spayed girls but they are all subordinate to most of the gals. My fav is when my tiniest (and very sweet) girl Kamea gently powergrooms Bear and he's twitching and eeping away on his back. I think he does it to make her feel good about herself. :laugh4:
bear and Tucker are often sprawled under some girls who are taking them down...LOL.

"Resistance is futile with girlrats!"
Tucker, with Kamea's dirty tail exiting the scene

Goliath on the otherhand can't make up his mind...he chases his Gals down and pins them and then they pin him next. :cheeky:


I am not sure what difference there is with intact males and spayed females or is it still a matriarchal society?

they definitely remind me of a pride of lions, where the males are the defenders but are not much else. LOL

I loooove my mixed colonies and feel they are the healthiest and happiest of all.

 

[SoA]

FEMALES. Without a doubt! With all my mixed-sex colonies, the females ruled the roost with an iron fist. I remember back when I introduced my first girls, and they both went straight to the then-alpha boy, Winterbane, who was not a very nice rat, and immediately flipped him and power-groomed him until he squeaked like mad

 

[RatsForever]

First, Rodentist your furkids are gorgeous!

I've had mostly females but from what I see, my colony is pretty matriarchal. Although, I do have one boy who does try very hard to be boss but it's my females who will put up a fight if need be. All my furkids are neutered or spayed.

 

[twitch]

females here too. i have two cages currently as zen is too sick to neuter. but during playtime and when magi was in the main cage with the girls twix ruled. she's actually gained a lot of weight for her and is now 420g in her older age (25 months). but she's still a tiny structured girly. all she has to do is look at bribery cockeyed and he's over on his back squeaking at her. she'll chase down stewart and flip his hut over with him in it when she's in a mood. when magi was in there she sat on top of him and groomed a bald spot on his back with him squeaking the entire time before she accepted him into the family. during play time she'll sidle chop suey who will immediately roll over. chop suey refuses to do any such thing if one of the males tried that with him. he'll ignore any male that tries and walks away. magi will put up with ink pushing him around a heck of a lot longer then he will stewart (and he's afraid of stewart for the most part-accepts him as his superior). but after a time he will flip ink over and sit on her. mind you everyone will do this to ink after she gets too full of herself or too excited.... ink my no longer be the youngest or a baby but she still acts it, to all her cagemates (other then tasche and smeag-who she can often pull into the trouble with her) woes....

so yeah, i think that females in the rat community social structure will be the more dominant over all and i think the males just naturally let that happen. but i guess we'll see. i've only had mix colonies now for about 1.5 years. i'm sure the structure will change as the queens move on.

 

[SQ]

Had to think about this ....
At present, the girls are definately alpha in mixed cages.

But Caleb used to be my alpha.
He was a very gentle boy and was clearly in charge.
Cindy was the enforcer, the defender, the outgoing rattie displaying alpha like behaviour ...
but she deferred to Caleb, whom she adored.

 

[Rodentist]

Hooray!! I suspected so much! It does seem like sometimes the males *let* the ladies dominate them, or kind of enjoy it. My old alpha, Trajan, was 28 months when the ladies moved in and 1080 grams...he was set in his ways, and the ladies left him alone. In his retirement years, he just wanted a comfy hammock, and his food. It would have been interesting if he was a year/year and a half younger.

When Mama first met Nero, a very dominate male, he came came at her like a train, and knocked her right over....now, this was his first encounter with a female...he walked away like that "that'll teach her!" but she popped right back up..."So?!! That proves nothing except that you're fat!" (he is 700 grams, to her 250 at the time) and chased him down....he did the sidling thing (I call it the butt push) "fufff!!!!" and he is a double rex but puffed up as much as possible. He knocked her over again. She pops right back up and continues going at him...but she is also trying to pull his ears...which seems to be a rattie come on. He was so confused. She never gave up on him. He eventually became Mama's reluctant #1 companion, because she just refused to leave him be. Nero is the eldest, surliest male. She had to have him.

Jo--I totally agree with you, they are better than a TV.

lilspaz- I think that the mixed colonies are the happiest and healthiest, too... the females add such a depth to the behaviors and interactions....I think they lead a fuller life.

Lets face it...the boys need ladies in their life to bring discipline and order, even if they wont admit it. Not just the rattie ones, either.

 

[Vanessa]

I love female/male colonies, and I miss them very much, but I just cannot afford spaying with so many boys to care for. I haven't had that many in my life, only having had two females, but they were most definitely the bosses. Both girls were less than half the size of the males that they lived with, but they totally ruled the roost.
The other thing I noticed is that, although I have had many males who defend younger males, or 'look after' each other after surgeries or whatnot, the females surpassed everyone in care. They would take food to recovering/ill/old boys and not leave their sides, keeping them warm and groomed. They were certainly the alphas, but they were also the nursemaids.
I remember how heartbroken I was when Holly got old and was deteriorating. I had no males that I could put in with her that I wasn't afraid might hurt her accidentally. She was spayed, but had also undergone a couple of tumour removals and was really declining in health. It broke my heart that I couldn't find someone to look after her the way she looked after Babylon, Jim, Bishop and Pharoah. I tried to do it, but I couldn't replace the kind of care she had shown them.
If I had the money, I would definitely spay some females and introduce them to each of my male colonies. Help keep the boys on their toes!

 

[Dewi]

In my mixed rat colonies I've mainly had female alpha's. In fact I've only had one male alpha rat in my mixed rat groups and he lives with only 2 others so he doesn't have much competition. Recently I introduced a young female rat (named Squirrel) into a group of 6 neutered males and she very quickly became the alpha. She's only 5 months old and now rules the roost. I'm not sure what it's like with intact males, but I do think that the majority of neutered males are too lazy or placid to pursue the role of alpha rat.

 

[Dewi]

Vanessa, hope you don't mind me asking, but how many rats do you have?

 

[Moon]

Never having had males and females together, I can't vote in either direction. But, Rodentist, I loved your story! LOL

 

[wonderrodent]

Rodentist, your colony IS adorable!
I loved everyone's story. I only had females so far but that really makes me want to have a mixed colony!

 

[jorats]

We see that a lot in our colonies, one special girl was lollipop at mamarat's. She took care of the wildthing when they were young, stopping the two big bullies from harassing them, the wildthings new to go and stay by her side when the bullies were looking for them. Then when the bullies grew old and sick, lollipop took care of them, not allowing the wildthings to bother them with their nonsense.
It's truly a beautiful thing...