Dealing with dumb vets...

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fenshae

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2009
Messages
1,124
Location
Las Cruces, NM
The title's a little tongue-in-cheek but it's a serious question. Does anybody have any tips/strategies for dealing with some...shall we say...not-rat-savvy vets? Especially in emergency/life-or-death situations?

As I'm sure you all know, I'm in Las Cruces, NM. We're a little "backwards" and pretty small (although, by New Mexico standards, we're downright progressive). There's only 3 vets in town that will even touch exotics. My adopting-partner/friend Callie lives in Deming, which is about an hour away and with a population of about 15,000, and a choice of one of two vets. She comes down to LC once a week or so to buy groceries and whatnot, but doesn't have her own car so transportation can be a bit woolly.

Anyway. Agnes (one of Callie's rats) has been having URI issues. She went from porphy and sneezy to "honking" and crackling very fast, so Callie took her to the vet in Deming. The vet prescribed her 10 days of Zithro, no Baytril, and nebulized her.....with just saline....while she was there. I was feeling OK about the vet until she explained that she gives Zithro "because it has viral coverage." Then I started to get scared.

Agnes has been on the zithro for about a week and doesn't seem to be getting better. No worse...but no better. She's got a humidifier by the cage which seems to help, and Callie bought a nebulizer that's shipping in now.

So, questions:
1.) is it worth calling another vet to see about getting more/different meds, or is Zithro + saline nebulizer actually going to help?
2.) How do you convince your vet to listen to you? I always make a point of bringing the Ratguide sheet and at least trying to discuss everything on it, but very often the vets just don't want to hear it, or are so flabbergasted that they don't know what to do.

Changing vets is all well and good, but we're burning through them fast down here. I like my vet OK, but I'm not 100% confident with her either.

There's absolutely nothing more frustrating than having rats who need specific emergency care, and not having a vet on-hand who can provide what you need.
 
Since it sounds like your vets egos can't let them receive your suggestions directly, I personally would put it this way: I did some research about combos of drugs being more effective. Do you think you could research that for me and see what you can find out? Before I moved (okay so this part is a lie) my vet used the VIN forums. Or something along those lines. This would probably make them feel more "in control."

I find it scary that a vet (even a cat or dog vet) would think any antibiotic has "viral coverage." I hope what she meant was that it would help even if the rat had a virus, because it would fight the opportunistic infections so that the rats body could keep the viral infection in check...

I really feel for you with the vet thing, I can't imagine what I'd do without a competent vet. Mine doesn't know everything but she will research anything for me and consults with other vets.

I forgot to add, Zithro can be great for young rats, but with older or chronic rats, it really should be used as a combination. And yes saline by itself can provide relief for rats.
 
The fact that the vet prescribed zithro would tell me to stick with this one. However, the rat needs a month of zithro. You give twice a day for 7 days and then down to once a day for 21 days.
The fact that the rat is not getting better makes me wonder about the dosing? Also, I have noticed that older rats do better with a combo with Baytril.
What she should do now is call the vet for a recheck, talk about the lack of improvements, about researching online for alternatives like Baytril or even asking for a complete switch to Baytril with doxy.
 
Zithro (10mg to 15mg/Ib, twice a day) + baytril (twice a day) is one antibiotic combo that may help .... but if it does help it is needed for at least 6 weeks

I find it helps to take along a recent copy of the Rat Health Care book ( see book section at www,ratfanclub.org).
Then the vet can use it as a reference guide.
I also have a book where I track symptoms, weights, meds per rat etc which I also take along to refer to.
Of course I will have already have done my research and know what I probably need from the vet.
 
Oh dear this is a subject that I am too familiar with as well!! :gaah: Living in small town BC is harsh when it comes to vets, which there are only two of, and neither will touch exotics. I travel to see a vet who isn't 'in to' exotics but will treat what she can, again, she won't consult with the Vet University in Sask. even though it won't cost a thing besides pride.

Baytril...what is it with Baytril? it's like friggin gold as far as acquiring it for my sick ratties!!! :rant: and when another vet in another town sells it to me it's only for a very small amount, say 7-days worth!! Three of my rattys have URI and I was prescribed just Doxy, no Baytril even though I asked for it specifically....oh I could go on and it's not giving you any good pointers...*sigh* But if I think of any, I'll let you know!! :nod:

I watch these types of threads like a hawk!!! :roll:
 
@Jo - I will double-check the dosage tonight when I get home and talk to Callie. I keep pestering her to join over here but she's shy so I play go-between lol. I know Agnes is getting up there in age, she's at least 20 months, and I'm going to guess this is not the first time she's been sick but I'm not sure what kind of vet care if any her old owner gave her. She'd passed hands twice already before she came to us.

@SQ - that's a good idea about the book. I always bring the RatGuide with me, but I bet an actual book would lend a bit more "credibility" to me. Maybe I'll give a copy to Dr. Calista for Christmas :p She might actually appreciate that. She's not exotics certified (as near as I can tell, nobody in New Mexico is.....) but she's -interested- in rats so that gives me a little leverage.

This lady in Deming is freaking me out, though. "viral coverage", yeesh...apparently she was also complaining about how hard it was to hear Agnes's lungs because she was making so much noise. yeeeeah.
 
You know, I have NEVER been able to get baytril + doxy, from any vet. Ever.

Sweeney for ear infection, baytril.
Wesley for ear infection, I forget what they gave...zithro, maybe?...but I know they wouldn't give baytril because he was "too young" no matter what I told them
When I took Mr. Ripper for pneumonia, he got 7 days of baytril.
The CHF guys, Beryl and Basil, got lasix + sulfatrim. Looked at me funny when I asked about Enlapril.

I know there's more that I'm forgetting....
 
We don't have any exotic vets here per se, but I have one now that can do spays and neuters with confidence. I have another that is good for regular surgery (tumour removal) and will use the Rat Guide or research that I bring in. She's great for giving me basically anything I ask for as far as drugs go. She knows I do as much research as possible.
It's pretty tough when egos get in the way of proper treatment. A good vet (a good doctor) should never be afraid to say "I don't know." It's OK to not know what is going on or how to treat it. They just need to be willing to try and find the answer.
 
So update on our dumb vet situation.

Callie went to see if they would give her a refill for another 10 days, and they fought with her about it but finally relented. She also asked (again) about adding extra meds: "She seems to be doing better, but all my research here, here and here suggests it might be even more effective to try this and this," and got a flat "no" from the vet and a suggestion that if she thought there were anything -new- wrong, they'd have to do another $50 exam first.

:headdesk:
 
Not in Deming, unfortunately....this is the -better- of the two vets there. I'm trying to convince her to at least call my vet here in Cruces and see if they'll work with her at all, but she's feeling very dubious about the whole thing. Especially since she was lined up to take in Kelsey and obviously that didn't pan out, she's not sure she trusts Calista when the only contact she's had with her was a failed surgery. I'm not -as- jaded about Calista but maybe that's because I have no other options.

As for Agnes, apparently her breathing has gotten quieter and no more crackling, so that could be very bad, or good. She also mentioned she's lost some weight, again, could be bad or good depending on if that weight was crud in her chest or not. Agnes didn't have a lot of weight lose in the first place, she was under 300g....argh.
 
It baffles me that a vet won't do his absolute best to try and help the animals, no matter the type. It would be nothing for this vet to jump online, get on an exotic vet forum and see what he needs to do. UGH
 
I'm dumbfounded by vets who won't take the time to listen and look at ratguide info. Sometimes I think it's a matter of pride, other times I wonder if they just assume it's some useless crap printed off the net. The one vet who actually took a look at what I brought in shrugged and said that my info might be correct, but according to her book the only "approved" meds were such-and-such...made me wonder if perhaps she felt there was some sort of liability issue, like if my critter still died after trying the meds I wanted I would turn around and try to sue her or something and someone would find out she tried advice found online.

I certainly think it's worth making the trip to another vet who you KNOW will be willing to give other meds. Some vets are willing to do phone consults, and even though they can't give affirmative answers without seeing an animal, they can at least say "Yes, baytril and doxy are drugs that we use frequently with rats".

In my vet's early days, when they were pretty rat-stupid, I ended up butting heads with them and arguing when they refused to try any "unapproved" meds for rats (steroids, bronchodialotors, lasix for possible heart issue, anything OTHER than baytril and doxy...) Ended up traveling 3 hours to see Dr. C, who's clinic I'm told is one of the top 10 exotic clinics in the states. He gave my boy another 6 comfy months with new meds, and he gave my vet a nice little phone call that turned out to be a major wake up call for them. They've now realized that if they're going to assume the responsibility of being the only folks in the area who treat exotics, they might actually have to get themselves up to speed.
 

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