Canadian Rat Breeders

[Ratanist]

Oh great - LOL! What have I supposedly done now to "come under fire?" I'm almost afraid to ask!

Sorry, I can't recall exactly what I had in mind but I had read/heard someone having a concern about something on your site... I worded myself poorly. I don't follow the breeder scene closely but I tried to make my post clear that I wasn't 100% informed.

Oh, now I think I know exactly what you're referring to. I was in here a few months back and came across a thread where people were asking if anyone knew anything about Brynn Tey from Dusty Beans Rattery. I outed her as a breeder for a pretty nasty Vancouver pet store... but of course when I saw this same blanket-statement in that thread about there being "no reputable breeders in Canada" I couldn't leave well enough alone and dared to disagree... which then led several people to start picking apart my barely reconstructed website, which was little more than a shell at the time, and criticizing pretty much everything on it, or not yet on it, as the case may be... so yes, come to think of it, "being under fire" pretty much described it. I did contemplate replying to all that at the time, concluded it was probably pointless, and moved on to other things. Which brings me back to the same conclusion, I know I'm a good breeder, the other breeders I work with know I'm a good breeder, the people who adopt rats from me know I breed great rats, even the people I work closely with in rescue know that I'm a good breeder, so I'm sorry to hear that I don't measure up in some people's eyes, and that actually makes me feel sad, but seriously, I get the impression that no matter what I do or say, as far as some people here are concerned, I probably never will.

I actually have worked on my website quite a bit since I was in here last, making some of the suggested improvements a priority, but I'm afraid it's going to be a while yet before everything is restored from the spectacular crash of just over a year ago. I am not exactly from the technology whizz generation, so it's slow going, plus my eyesight "close in" is very poor, so I can't stare at a computer screen for very long in one sitting... in fact I can tell I've really over done it for today already. Until I do get everything back up, if anyone has a legitimate interest in the health, longevity, or pedigree of a particular rat or line, and the information is not up on my site, I should be able to to look it up for them in my records pretty quickly.

Now despite the fact that I am trying to get the site back up, I still think it's unfortunate that so many people here seem to see a website as such an all important criteria to judge a rattery by. I can see it being important when you first start out, and need to establish yourself, but once you've done that, and most of your adopters are repeat adopters, and when you have no plans to adopt outside your local area, it's really not that necessary. Some of the most ethical, long established breeders I know, are busy people who no longer have time to keep their websites up to date at all. When we do have a little spare time, most of us would rather be spending it with our ratties rather than sitting in front of computer.

The really ironic thing about a website, is that people can say anything they like on them, and I know of plenty of horribly unethical feeder breeders who keep their rats in terrible abusive conditions and yet have a smooth and convincing looking website that claims otherwise. Ditto for many rescuers I might add – I know of plenty of rescue people who are not exactly reputable either. Some are little more than hoarders, who take in way more rats than they can manage, or afford, and then end up keeping them in horrible crowded conditions, often ending up with serial accidental litters... and many don’t even bother, or don’t even know enough, to properly screen their adopters, or to quarantine the rats in their care… and some even think sending pet rats to be food at wildlife rehabs, or reptile refuges, is an acceptable "rescue" practice. I'm sure others here have also encountered some pretty horrorific rescue organizations and know exactly what I mean. I could point you to several of them out here on the West Coast, but would not presume to pass judgements on rescues (or ratteries) in other parts of the country that I know nothing about.

I have said this here before, and I will say it again for anyone who might have missed it... I am used to working in a culture out here on the West Coast, where the ethical breeders and the ethical rescuers are all good friends, united by a common love of pet rats. We have always worked together side by side to clean up the messes left behind by both the bad breeders and the bad rescuers, and believe me, we have dealt with plenty of both. To come back to this forum, which I have been a long time member of, and discover the prevailing "us vs them" attitude that many people here seem to have, and then to hear for the first time the "there are no reputable breeders in Canada" line, was quite a culture shock. It really made me thankful and proud, that I do live out here in this part of the world, with so many wonderful, open minded, rat loving people to work with.

 

[Ratanist]

Hi Lizzy, nice to see you here. You may remember me as "that crazy person who sent you an email recently". :lol:

I seriously had to think about that one - LOL - I get so much email from so many crazy people, but now that I see the context, I know just which crazy person you are, and I'm thinking you are probably not crazy at all. :mrgreen:

This forum has a very strong rescue mentality and a lot of people do not approve of breeders for any reason.... I mean, how many breeders are approved by rescues?

Well quite a few out here actually, which is why the attitude of rescuers in other areas initially came as such a shock. I am starting to "get it" now though. It does make sense if there really aren't any ethical ratteries in those areas. Then it truly is an "us against them" situation.

It seems in Ontario and the maritime provinces there a lot of ratteries popping up that are not doing things the right way, and the members here are cleaning up their messes. Not to mention previously ethically thought of ratteries like Evergreen are having adopters pop up here that have rats with megacolon and other health issues. I can see why some people are starting to claim that Canada has no ethical ratteries.

What you described, we had the same thing happen just last year, right here on the Shack -- a wanna-breed came here 'seeking advice', then promptly turned her back on all of it and set up shop as a classic BYB. And in true BYB form, she spread her charisma to others and now there's a cottage industry of BYBs in interior BC. I'd not be surprised if your failed apprentice is leaving your name up on her website in order to give herself an air of legitimacy. So the whole thing has left a souuuuur taste in Shackers' mouths.

Nekopan and Katzedecimal thank you both for the welcoming words and I totally hear you regarding the problems with Evergreen and with the Kelowna area Ratteries. Concerning situations indeed.

 

[jorats]

I've know Lizzy for a long time now and SITH rattery, I've never had an issue with her.
Back in 2002, we had a few people working hard at making good ratteries but resources were simply not there and they've failed because of their actions and reactions like Silver Falls Rattery selling to pet stores and spreading MC all over the place. Then we had Lil Ratscal's in Ottawa, who wasn't so bad except that they spread misinformation which made them look desperate and ignorant. There was Rose'N'Bloom in Kingston, Alana did try hard but she fell under hard times and was lynched by the rest of the rat community. There's also Sandra in Saskatchewan, she breeds for herself and for friends but has been doing it for years and she's very much a holistic healer and well respected. I know there are ethical breeders out there but very very few, plus most remain unknown to us because they do not express a willingness to learn or teach.
What makes a rattery ethical is a personal opinion. I know of a rattery considered ethical yet they breed manx, to me, that's not ethical. But to a majority of the rat community in his area, he is.
As for website, that's all most of us have to go on, our only source for information. For new ratteries, the website should be the face of the rattery, should contain all the information one needs to formulate an impression on the rattery. It's the website that will decide if we will promote them as a rattery or denounce them. The older ratteries are held up by their reputation and clientele. Those who last as long as SITH and are respected in their area like SITH is a good rattery to me.

 

[Moon]

I mean, how many breeders are approved by rescues? It seems in Ontario and the maritime provinces there a lot of ratteries popping up that are not doing things the right way, and the members here are cleaning up their messes.

Personally, and I might get flak for saying this, I really like ethical breeders. They do very good work, when it's done properly, and both myself, and ethical breeders, are working "against" the BYBs and mills, if that makes sense.

I just want to note that I'm with Chelle on this, I entirely endorse ethical breeders of all sorts. So I don't want you to think I am "against" you in any way, Lizzy. But as I said, I don't follow the rat breeder game closely and I am going to automatically be very sceptical of them.

 

[xxchelle]

I think we've (almost) all seen first hand the destruction and devastation poor breeding can cause (genetic defects, megacolon, rats prone to respiratory infections and tumors, etc.) and we've almost all had our heart broken by a rat that's died much too young from something genetic. Because of that, we are almost ALL skeptical of all breeders. I'm guilty of jumping the gun and hearing the word "breeder" and thinking "ahh crap this is awful more BYBs". But I've also learned to not take things at face value, and to learn about that particular breeders' ethics before passing judgment.

 

[Ratanist]

Definite huge red flag that they're using unpedigreed rats. Also they're breeding rats with high white markings. I've yet to hear of a safe high white line in Canada, so that's another HUGE red flag to me, one that nearly makes me cry (having had a rescue litter with megacolon, it hits pretty close to home). Unknown backgrounds + high white markings and it's only a matter of time before megacolon pops up

I only just noticed this post in reference to Sinsational Rattery, and wanted to comment, not so much on them, but on the whole high white/megacolon issue. It was actually dealing with megacolon that pushed me from doing rescue alone into taking up breeding. I had just raised 3 rescue litters in a row for Homefinders Animal Rescue Society, in which there were varying numbers of babies with megacolon. In the second litter, 8 out of the 9 babies had to be euthanised, including 2 that I had been planning to adopt myself. In the third litter, the markings weren't even high white, so we didn't even see it coming. That one was the "last straw" for the two women running Homefinders. Seriously, there are only so many dead and dying babies you can take before something snaps in your head. I am still affiliated with that rescue, (as both a cat "foster mom" and a board member,) but sadly, they no longer work with rats. They just couldn't take it anymore. It was infuriating that all around me local petstores and feeder breeders were continuing to churn out megacolon ridden babies, leaving a trail of heart broken adopters in their wake. It was further infuriating that people in these parts had no other options, but to keep taking a chance on rats from those same sources, whether directly or through rescue. I had been a member of "the ratlist", which was the first ever online rat group, since it first started out as a "listserve" on a small college based server... and as they came along, I also joined the Rat Fan Club, RMCA, RatsPacNW, the now defunct Pet Rats Canada and Rat Retro forums, and almost every online rat rescue group you could name, so I knew there were better, healthier rat lines out there, and I had a pretty good feel for who the better breeders of the day were. In fact I had already formed a friendship with a breeder in Tacoma WA and driven down to adopt several rats from her. The first of those were a pair of PEW rescue boys she had taken in and was having trouble finding a home for. I do have a soft spot for PEWs, and was feeling tempted, but not quite enough to drive 10 hours return, to pick them up. Finally she announced that if anyone was willing to adopt them, she would throw in a free dumbo boy from her current litter. In those days, dumbos were just new to the fancy, and I'd never even seen one, except in pictures. It was the icing on the cake! That little black dumbo boy, was the great Darth Darby, eternal webmaster of the SITH Rattery website and jedi fighter extraordinaire, who is pictured in my Avetar eating a cheesey (which he did not get from me - LOL!) and who is also the rat "represented" in the SITH Rattery logo. Darby was a real eye opener for me, both in his sweet calm temperament and the fact that he lived to be almost 3, despite having scarred lungs from respiratory ailment as a baby. (That actually happend before I adopted him, and in hindsight we are pretty sure now it was SDA because it affected their whole rattery, but that was back in the days before any of us had even heard of it!) Up until Darth Darby, I'd had a lot of rescue rats, none of which had made it much past 2. I now regret not breeding that boy, but I had him and several others from that line, long before any thought of becoming a breeder had even entered my mind (so I do digress a bit, don't I?)

When I finally did hit that "last straw moment" and decided to take up breeding, my only goal was to produce better, healthier rats for myself and for a few of my friends, but word travels fast, and soon I had people knocking on my door begging me to do yet another litter, and then another. Still, it was not something I rushed into without establishing good mentors, and without having some idea of what I was doing. For the first 5 years that the RatsPacNW club held shows, I was terrified to bring any of my rats, which put me in great demand as a show judge. Through learning to judge and to distinguish all the colors, markings, and varieties, a natural curiousity to learn about genetics that produced them followed. Long before I actually took up breeding, I was already explaining basic genetics to other new breeders in the club, and people were always teasing me that it was past time I took up the hobby myself.

My foundation lines all came from long established ratteries in the US or UK, because as you say, there were no safe high white lines in Canada, and actually not much in the way of pedigreed lines period, that I was able to find. One of the lines I work with is a dalmatian line that is mostly white, with just a few cute face markings. In fact my rattery partner, and former evil SITH apprentice at Small Joys Rattery, actually specializes in black eyed whites that descend from this line. Given my personal absolute horror of megacolon, I would never have started working with this line, if I were not absolutely certain that it is safe and megacolon free. We don't do a lot of outcrossing, but when we do, we stick with other breeders we know and trust, who are also working with megacolon free lines. Another line we work with is a European roan line, the appearance of which tends to scare people because, as babies, before they start to "roan out" in later life, they look just like North American Husky's, which were the original carriers of the megacolon producing "high white" gene. This is another completely megacolon free line however, decending from a roan rat that was imported from Germany.

[center:1y8eiwf3]These are some of the scary looking European roans we breed.[/center:1y8eiwf3]
[center:1y8eiwf3]

[/center:1y8eiwf3]
So yes, there are healthy megacolon free rats with high white markings being bred in Canada, but I have even better news than that. Out here on the West Coast, even the ratty mill breeders and backyard breeders finally seem to have caught on to the fact that breeding rats with megacolon is "bad for business". Since we formed Little Mischief Rescue in November 2007, we have only ever had one litter with megacolon come through the rescue, and we have dealt with a lot of high white marked rescue litters. In that one affected litter, there were only 2 affected babies, which of course was 2 too many, but still, I see the overall drop in megacolon litters, as a positive sign that at least one thing seems to be going right in the world of pet rats. My current favorite pet rat is in fact a "masked" rescue boy named Rocket, who came from a megacolon free high white litter I raised for Little Mischief 2 years ago (and who will of course, never be bred). I still feel vaguely guilty for adopting him, since I ordinarily choose older, less "adoptable" rescues, but Rocket actually chose me, and was very insistant about it. Now I'm so glad he was!

[center:1y8eiwf3]This is my beloved "high white" Rocket with his mink velveteen friend Carlisle, from a photo with "Santa" at a rescue fundraiser[/center:1y8eiwf3]
[center:1y8eiwf3]

[/center:1y8eiwf3]

xxchelle, if, I may correct one slight miss statement you made however... You wrote: "Unknown backgrounds + high white markings and it's only a matter of time before megacolon pops up." This is not necessily true because megacolon will only occur in lines where the "high white" megacolon causing gene is actually present. (Well actually, there is thought to be a very small chance of megacolon spontaneously popping up an any line, but this is very rare.) Because of the low incidence of megacolon that we are seeing in BC these days, and because no megacolon has popped up in their lines as yet, chances are good that this gene is not present in the lines that Sinsational Rattery are currently breeding. It's early yet though, so it's probably still too soon to say they are completely in the clear. If it turns out that the "high white" gene is not present however, they could inbreed and line breed that line until the cows come home, and there would be no incidence of megacolon. Where the danger lies, and I'm sure this is what you probably meant to say, is that if they were to do an outcross into another "unknown" high white line, then they would be right back at square one, and playing "Russian Roulette" with it all over again. The scary thing is, shortly after I agreed to mentor them, they got a new "high white" marked boy as an "impulse" buy from a pet store. I argued loud and long against breeding him into their current line, just as I argued loud and long against breeding the naked girl. I will continue to press that point too, in the hope that they will start listening, rather than having to learn everything the hard way, and at the expense of the poor rats.

And by the way - Jo, thank you for your kind words, as always. And with that, I think I will do my usual "vanishing act" from the forum for another few weeks or months, because the temptation to spend all my "computer time" here rambling on, instead of working on my website, is just way too strong. If anyone wants to drop in at our little party on March 13th, do let me know.

 

[Bamboo]

I mean, how many breeders are approved by rescues? It seems in Ontario and the maritime provinces there a lot of ratteries popping up that are not doing things the right way, and the members here are cleaning up their messes.

Personally, and I might get flak for saying this, I really like ethical breeders. They do very good work, when it's done properly, and both myself, and ethical breeders, are working "against" the BYBs and mills, if that makes sense.

I just want to note that I'm with Chelle on this, I entirely endorse ethical breeders of all sorts. So I don't want you to think I am "against" you in any way, Lizzy. But as I said, I don't follow the rat breeder game closely and I am going to automatically be very sceptical of them.

+1

Ethical breeders, who are doing what they do because they truly care about the animals they're working with and only want to "better" the population, don't deserve to be lumped in with BYBs, who are just out to make a quick buck. Whoever said that ethical breeders and rescues are actually on the same "side" (against BYBs) hit the nail right on the head.