Cabbage questions.

[mustloverats]

As I (and so should you) know, raw cabbage is not supposed to be a part of a rats diet. :nod:

But can cooked cabbage be? Personally, I have never risked it, but if any of you know leave a suggestion or comment on the topic.

AND... What about beets? (Once again, I've never risked it, but do you know? *cooked beets of course*)


Thaaaanks :thumbup:

 

[jorats]

I might be having a brain fart but why can't rats have raw cabbage? I don't think it's in the food to avoid or did I miss it?
I think cooked cabbage is ok. I believe my mom gives some to her rats all the time. Same with cooked beets. I'm pretty sure it's ok.

 

[hopefloats]

Boy I eaat cbbage it is gs city last thing I want to chance is a room full of rat farts lol

 

[Petunia]

my rats love all the gassy veggies: cabbage, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, peppers, etc

I've never heard that they couldn't have those raw but I bet its' because they are gas producing veggies, and if you cook them they are less likely to cause as much gas

I've seen several of my girls looking like they had a tummy ache after eating these veggies so I started cooking them for them, and try to only give them small amounts

they go nuts for the stuff, though, you'd think they were getting something really good like candy or cake :lol:

 

[mustloverats]

I thought I heard that raw cabbage was bad somewhere... ah well. Nice to hear all your input

 

[Petunia]

I thought I heard that raw cabbage was bad somewhere... ah well. Nice to hear all your input

I saw that too not long ago, specifically that raw red cabbage shouldn't be given to rats, but I can't recall where it saw it

:/

 

[SQ]

I would be cautious about veg.s that cause gas (such as cabbage).
Rat's intestines can get twisted up with gas and this can be dangerous - or so I was told several years ago by a vet when one of my boys required pain meds (etc) because of gas.

 

[*Rebel_Angel*]

Im with Jorats why couldnt they have raw cabbage!

 

[victoria]

Raw red cabbage and Brussel sprouts are on the list of foods not to feed to rats because they contain a compound that can cause a thiamine deficiency. According to this article, the thiamine inhibitor in cabbage is heat stable and is also found in other foods, including blueberries: http://helid.digicollection.org/en/d/Js2900e/8.2.html

Like all foods, variety is key. As long as you're not feeding the same foods day in and day out, the risks offset themselves and you get the full benefits of fresh, whole foods.

I would be cautious about veg.s that cause gas (such as cabbage).
Rat's intestines can get twisted up with gas and this can be dangerous - or so I was told several years ago by a vet when one of my boys required pain meds (etc) because of gas.

Are you kidding me? Their intestines get twisted up? If you're not going to feed cabbage, you should also stay away from ALL cruciferous vegetables - cauliflower, broccoli, bok choy, kale, etc. Cruciferous vegetables can be dangerous to herbivores if they aren't monitored because they can cause gas, but so can any vegetable depending on the individual. ANY food can cause gas.

 

[SQ]

Are you kidding me? Their intestines get twisted up? If you're not going to feed cabbage, you should also stay away from ALL cruciferous vegetables - cauliflower, broccoli, bok choy, kale, etc. Cruciferous vegetables can be dangerous to herbivores if they aren't monitored because they can cause gas, but so can any vegetable depending on the individual. ANY food can cause gas.

Edited to add what I actually wrote, as the above paraphrase is inaccurate, misleading, and confrontational.

I would be cautious about veg.s that cause gas (such as cabbage).
Rat's intestines can get twisted up with gas and this can be dangerous - or so I was told several years ago by a vet when one of my boys required pain meds (etc) because of gas.

I was told that this may sometimes happen by an experienced vet who had a great deal of experience treating rats
- basically the second best rat vet I am aware of at the end of the country.
At the time, my boy was in a great deal of pain, sucking in the sides of his abdomen, etc. because of gas.

Since that time (approx. 7.5 years ago) I keep a pediatric gas med (recommended by the vet) on hand .... just in case.
I also limit the quanity and frequency of cruciferous vegetables I feed my rats ... and I do not feed them the worst offenders ... like cabbage.

Victoria, if you plan on arguing about this, etc, I will get you the vet's contact info and you can take it up with him.
(Edit: I no longer use this vet as my rats now see a vet I consider to be the best rat vet at this end of the country.)

 

[victoria]

Are you kidding me? Their intestines get twisted up? If you're not going to feed cabbage, you should also stay away from ALL cruciferous vegetables - cauliflower, broccoli, bok choy, kale, etc. Cruciferous vegetables can be dangerous to herbivores if they aren't monitored because they can cause gas, but so can any vegetable depending on the individual. ANY food can cause gas.

I was told that by an experienced vet who had a great deal of experience treating rats
- basically the second best rat vet I am aware of at the end of the country.
At the time, my boy was in a great deal of pain, sucking in the sides of his abdomen, etc. because of gas.

Since that time (approx. 7.5 years ago) I keep a pediatric gas med (recommended by the vet) on hand.
I also limit the quanity and frequency of cruciferous vegetables I feed my rats ... and I do not feed them the worst offenders ... like cabbage.

Victoria, if you plan on arguing about this, etc, I will get you the vet's contact info and you can take it up with him.

Since you have such a good working relationship with your vet, why don't you ask him for some scientific evidence? Like an x-ray or an ultrasound or necropsy pics. The mechanics of what you're describing don't make sense, period.

 

[Aida]

I give mine cabbage...
I think it's RED cabbage they can't have.

 

[mamarat]

As far as I know, red cabbage is a no-no but mine get cooked green cabbage and brussel sprouts all the time.

 

[MuffinsMum]

In Rats - Practical Advice from the Expert, Debbie Duccomun lists raw red cabbage and raw brussels sprouts on the forbidden list.

(Sorry, I'm still new enough to this to need a 'guru' :giggle: )

 

[victoria]

In Rats - Practical Advice from the Expert, Debbie Duccomun lists raw red cabbage and raw brussels sprouts on the forbidden list.

(Sorry, I'm still new enough to this to need a 'guru' :giggle: )

What makes Debbie D an expert? If you look at the recommendations/medical advice in her books and publications, it is most often not in line with peer reviewed material. She has been questioned time and again about her guidelines for home euthanasia and she stands by them (even though they are not even acceptable in a laboratory setting) and continues to publish them in subsequent editions. She publishes her books and gives out advice knowing full well people use it as an alternative to going to a vet, yet she does not even hold a science degree.

Does she say why it's forbidden? It's actually omitted from the list published on her website that's been updated as late as this year: www.ratfanclub.org/diet.html

If you read through the article I linked, it doesn't make sense to put raw cabbage on the forbidden list since the compounds that are of concern are heat resistant. Many fruits and vegetables contain compounds that inhibit absorption of one nutrient or another - that's why you should not feed the same things every day. The issue with thiamine antagonists is not unique to rats and yet, it is not recommended for humans to avoid raw red cabbage.

You have to be careful where you get your info and ask questions... lots of places list chocolate as toxic to rats but that is also incorrect. I had a vet once tell me avocado was incredibly toxic to rats (after I distinctly remember asking Dr. Munn about it during a consult) and when I really questioned her, she admitted she was extrapolating from birds because avocado is highly toxic to them. (The avocado flesh closest to the pit and peel is often listed as toxic to rats as well because it may cause GI discomfort.)

Most likely, SQ's vet is extrapolating from the potential risk to herbivores (rabbits, guinea pigs, degus, etc.) and she is over-simplifying his warning. It is very unlikely any food is capable of making the intestines get "twisted up". Fear mongering is not an effective way to dispense advice - when people realize you're full of crap, they will ignore all the advice you give them, even the helpful parts.

 

[MuffinsMum]

In Rats - Practical Advice from the Expert, Debbie Duccomun lists raw red cabbage and raw brussels sprouts on the forbidden list.

(Sorry, I'm still new enough to this to need a 'guru' :giggle: )

What makes Debbie D an expert? If you look at the recommendations/medical advice in her books and publications, it is most often not in line with peer reviewed material. She has been questioned time and again about her guidelines for home euthanasia and she stands by them (even though they are not even acceptable in a laboratory setting) and continues to publish them in subsequent editions. She publishes her books and gives out advice knowing full well people use it as an alternative to going to a vet, yet she does not even hold a science degree.

Does she say why it's forbidden? It's actually omitted from the list published on her website that's been updated as late as this year: http://www.ratfanclub.org/diet.html

If you read through the article I linked, it doesn't make sense to put raw cabbage on the forbidden list since the compounds that are of concern are heat resistant. Many fruits and vegetables contain compounds that inhibit absorption of one nutrient or another - that's why you should not feed the same things every day. The issue with thiamine antagonists is not unique to rats and yet, it is not recommended for humans to avoid raw red cabbage.

You have to be careful where you get your info and ask questions... lots of places list chocolate as toxic to rats but that is also incorrect. I had a vet once tell me avocado was incredibly toxic to rats (after I distinctly remember asking Dr. Munn about it during a consult) and when I really questioned her, she admitted she was extrapolating from birds because avocado is highly toxic to them. (The avocado flesh closest to the pit and peel is often listed as toxic to rats as well because it may cause GI discomfort.)

Most likely, SQ's vet is extrapolating from the potential risk to herbivores (rabbits, guinea pigs, degus, etc.) and she is over-simplifying his warning. It is very unlikely any food is capable of making the intestines get "twisted up". Fear mongering is not an effective way to dispense advice - when people realize you're full of crap, they will ignore all the advice you give them, even the helpful parts.

For the most part I agree with your caveats but I don't know that I'll agree with your conclusions.

I used Debbie Ducommun's advice in her book on a question of cabbage - not on home euthanasia. I will clearly and emphatically state that I cannot agree with her stance on it - and only suppose that questioning her personally would answer why that is still included in her books.

With regard to your disregard of someone who doesn't hold a science degree however, I would strongly disagree with you. I'm a strong supporter of the doula/lactation/midwifery field - a field that has had to fight long and hard with the medical establishment itself for more anatomical birthing methods and baby friendly modes of operation. Many of these woman don't hold a degree in the field, and yet have more to offer on their area of expertise than your average GP, and even obstetricians whom I've met. (And yes, you'll find quacks included in the midwifery field - which doesn't negate all of them).

I believe that the reason Debbie D's Health Book came into existance was with the same sort of concern. Rats seemed to be a field that most vets had no experience with and she wanted to help the animals by helping to educate their caregivers. Yes some people will use her book inappropriately, but I don't think that knocks the intent.

On a last note, be careful with scientific studies too. Before you accept the conclusion, find out who commissioned it. Statistics can say pretty much anything you want them to - depending on which ones you choose.

Back to raw cabbage, I personally am a 'better safe than sorry person' and wouldn't feed it to one of our babies if it's on a questionable list.

 

[eriin]

not to add to the argument, but my thought is that.. for 10 years of off and on owning rats, i have fed them all cauliflower and broccoli. i do not have experience with cabbage or brussel sprouts because i do not by them myself because i do not like them. OF COURSE i do not consider myself a rat expert or hold a scientific degree, im speaking from my personal experience and a vegans point of view. yes, of course these vegetables can cause gas and could be dangerous to your rat, keyword COULD, although in my opinion and from what i've seen first hand over the years, that many rats enjoy these vegetable and some of those said rats just should not be fed them. some rats react differently to different foods, like humans, and some rats are perfectly fine eating most foods. like an allergy, you have to see the signs and be careful with ANY FOODS and if an issue surfaces to have to be sure not to continue with that diet. my current 4 rats, 2 young females and 2 older males, living seperately, LOVE broccoli and cauliflower AND like one person said, they noticed a rat feeling sick and looked like tummy pains. the same thing happened to me and now only 3 of my 4 rats are fed such vegetables. like sq, i had a rat that suffered from the same symptoms with the abdominal pain in the past and when i noticed i cut out gas inducing veggies from the diet and just as i suspected, that was the issue and he returned to being as healthy as ever. and had lived a healthy 2 year life.

i think the issues with rat owners, NOT DIRECTING THIS TO ANYONE HERE SPECIFICALLY, JUST MY VIEW is that people take what to feed rats too seriously. that is not a bad thing though, i've just noticed that people are far more serious about rat diet than any other animal that i've had experince with. they do have a delicate system though and stuff can go wrong easily, especially when wanted to keep them as healthy as possible because they're such lovable creatures with such a short life span. so the over-protective-ness is easily understandable. yes, it is very important to feed the right diet and OF COURSE to not feed certain vegetables and foods that are dangerous. alot of people seem to think that if it MIGHT CAUSE something bad then to forget about it completely and regret to see the good aspects of the food because with some foods like cabbage i personally feel that in moderation can be perfectly healthy every few days or ect.. im trying to say this in the 'big picture' point of view. i dont want anyone taking this as me saying it's okay to feed your rats dangerous foods. of course not, but i agree with victoria and sq. yes these foods are controversial to some, but if moderated and monitored carefully and you have generally understanding of your OWN PERSONAL RAT and its reactions you should be fine. and if you rather not take a possible risk then it's perfectly ok not to feed your rats these foods.

i do not want to add to the argument, like said. i just wanted to chime in on the middle ground for people who are overwhelmed by the strong contrast of the two prominent opinions here.

 

[MuffinsMum]

eriin, I'm not at all offended :hugs: ... thanks for your input.

 

[victoria]

In Rats - Practical Advice from the Expert, Debbie Duccomun lists raw red cabbage and raw brussels sprouts on the forbidden list.

(Sorry, I'm still new enough to this to need a 'guru' :giggle: )

What makes Debbie D an expert? If you look at the recommendations/medical advice in her books and publications, it is most often not in line with peer reviewed material. She has been questioned time and again about her guidelines for home euthanasia and she stands by them (even though they are not even acceptable in a laboratory setting) and continues to publish them in subsequent editions. She publishes her books and gives out advice knowing full well people use it as an alternative to going to a vet, yet she does not even hold a science degree.

Does she say why it's forbidden? It's actually omitted from the list published on her website that's been updated as late as this year: http://www.ratfanclub.org/diet.html

If you read through the article I linked, it doesn't make sense to put raw cabbage on the forbidden list since the compounds that are of concern are heat resistant. Many fruits and vegetables contain compounds that inhibit absorption of one nutrient or another - that's why you should not feed the same things every day. The issue with thiamine antagonists is not unique to rats and yet, it is not recommended for humans to avoid raw red cabbage.

You have to be careful where you get your info and ask questions... lots of places list chocolate as toxic to rats but that is also incorrect. I had a vet once tell me avocado was incredibly toxic to rats (after I distinctly remember asking Dr. Munn about it during a consult) and when I really questioned her, she admitted she was extrapolating from birds because avocado is highly toxic to them. (The avocado flesh closest to the pit and peel is often listed as toxic to rats as well because it may cause GI discomfort.)

Most likely, SQ's vet is extrapolating from the potential risk to herbivores (rabbits, guinea pigs, degus, etc.) and she is over-simplifying his warning. It is very unlikely any food is capable of making the intestines get "twisted up". Fear mongering is not an effective way to dispense advice - when people realize you're full of crap, they will ignore all the advice you give them, even the helpful parts.

For the most part I agree with your caveats but I don't know that I'll agree with your conclusions.

I used Debbie Ducommun's advice in her book on a question of cabbage - not on home euthanasia. I will clearly and emphatically state that I cannot agree with her stance on it - and only suppose that questioning her personally would answer why that is still included in her books.

With regard to your disregard of someone who doesn't hold a science degree however, I would strongly disagree with you. I'm a strong supporter of the doula/lactation/midwifery field - a field that has had to fight long and hard with the medical establishment itself for more anatomical birthing methods and baby friendly modes of operation. Many of these woman don't hold a degree in the field, and yet have more to offer on their area of expertise than your average GP, and even obstetricians whom I've met. (And yes, you'll find quacks included in the midwifery field - which doesn't negate all of them).

I believe that the reason Debbie D's Health Book came into existance was with the same sort of concern. Rats seemed to be a field that most vets had no experience with and she wanted to help the animals by helping to educate their caregivers. Yes some people will use her book inappropriately, but I don't think that knocks the intent.

On a last note, be careful with scientific studies too. Before you accept the conclusion, find out who commissioned it. Statistics can say pretty much anything you want them to - depending on which ones you choose.

Back to raw cabbage, I personally am a 'better safe than sorry person' and wouldn't feed it to one of our babies if it's on a questionable list.

With respects to midwives and doulas, I wouldn't say they're not science backed professions and many provinces are working towards certifying them so that not just anyone can use the title. I know my aunt has gone through a lot to have her education recognized and become certified in Alberta and I can assure you, she had to take a LOT of science courses to achieve that.

Debbie D's published her book at a time when there wasn't a lot of interest by the veterinary community in learning to treat domestic rats or improving on their knowledge base. That time has passed - there are many wonderful programs where vet students can specialize and professional associations dedicated to the improvement of the care of exotic domestic animals. The problem is, Debbie D seems to be ignorant to this fact and relies more on conclusions derived from "necropsies" she does on her own rats (again, she has no formal veterinary medicine nor pathology training) than she does on peer reviewed material.

Yes, studies can be skewed by bias or flawed procedure or just plain ignorance, that's why peer review is so important. Debbie D is not open to peer review, she constantly disregards questions and concerns by other very experienced rat community members because that's not her experience. She was the first "expert" so her material is most often referenced but that doesn't make her the best. There are a lot of people on this forum or Goosemoose whose opinions or judgement I would trust over Debbie D's every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

I can't fathom why anyone trusts her opinions and conclusions when medicating their rats when she also considers a 20 gallon aquarium an acceptable habitat for a single rat or thinks home euthanasia is humane. Her guidelines are after all based on just that, her conclusions and opinions, so yes, I will use her choice to continue publishing home euthanasia instructions as a basis to judge the rest of her work since it is a reflection of judgement. If she had any sort of professional accreditation in the veterinary field, she would have lost it a long time ago because it is so unethical to dispense medical over the internet the way she does, even going as far as helping people purchase prescription medications on the grey market.

Back to the topic of raw red cabbage, if you believe it is a risk, then you should also avoid the other foods that contain the same compound. If you bothered to read the link, it references several other peer reviewed articles and is an overview of the causes of thiamine deficiency. Beyond that, the compound is heat stable, so cooking it does nothing to diminish the risks associated with it. If anyone knows another good reason why raw red cabbage should be on the "Forbidden Foods List", I'd love to know it. NOWHERE is there any evidence that feeding vegetables or foods that can cause gas will cause a rat's intestines to get twisted.

 

[MuffinsMum]

Victoria, it often isn't what one has to say that is offensive, but the way one chooses to say it. Tic tac anyone?

I admitted to being new to rat ownership, I've been trying to find good information to help me (I'm on this forum for example), and despite being helped by some of Debbie D's information, my girls still managed to make their way into a double CN. Apparently admitting my weakness gave you licence to pour out some vitriol, and I didn't appreciate it.

Not everyone is ignorant by choice, nor does everyone live in the city with the most recently trained vets to help them. Some vets were trained long before rats became popular pets, and learning more about them would be elective at this point. Thankfully I have a great vet close to home, but when Muffie was sick and we were away from home, my best help specialised in horses and cattle.

Everyone who comes to this forum comes here by choice, probably to educate themselves. They're not necessarily public enemy #1. I've asked questions. I'm keen to learn.

(And as an aside, I've been on both sides of the midwifery/medicine issue, going back 20 years. Great strides have been made, but I remember WHEN... please don't assume that people who you're talking to are ignorant about absolutely everything, I brought that up to explain a principle, not to argue the practise.)