Bati
Well-Known Member
I'm daring to ask, because I find that you feel very strongly about it, and I would breed a rescue any day (not girls, but most would do girls too), so I was wondering what's the reason not to breed a rescue?
Why not breed rescues?
- Thread starter Bati
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jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
I don't know about where you live, but here, most rescues are from pet stores or from questionable backyard breeders. Such rats don't have a known background, don't have a pedigree so to speak where you can follow their genetics.
I believe it's important to breed *only* for health, to make the species better and no other reason. So this would mean you only breed rats that are of top health, no tumours in the line, resistant to myco, no aggression. Taking in a rescue, you have no idea of their lineage. Your rat could seem in top health but what of the brothers and sisters?
Also, I believe rats that are shuffled from home to home, are put in a stressful situation. To then go put them in another stressful situation like breeding just to make money for a breeder is just wrong and simply immoral. ...that's my personal opinion.
I believe it's important to breed *only* for health, to make the species better and no other reason. So this would mean you only breed rats that are of top health, no tumours in the line, resistant to myco, no aggression. Taking in a rescue, you have no idea of their lineage. Your rat could seem in top health but what of the brothers and sisters?
Also, I believe rats that are shuffled from home to home, are put in a stressful situation. To then go put them in another stressful situation like breeding just to make money for a breeder is just wrong and simply immoral. ...that's my personal opinion.
That is a subject that most of us feel very strongly about. There are a couple of reasons why many of us feel this way.
Rescue rats have no background history in most cases and are generally pet store stock. You have absolutely nothing to go on for their genetic background in just about every case. You can't breed animals that you don't know anything about. One of the parents could be a carrier for high white [megacolon], they could have a genetic fault that makes them sickly or aggressive. That rat's littermates may have already died by 7 months from heart failure or organ failure, and you have no idea. You just don't know. You have every chance of having to sit by and watch an entire litter die, watch the mother develop an illness and die while still nursing, lose the litter to failure to thrive. Even if the first litter did okay, it might happen in the second litter, in the third, or somewhere else down the line. Some horrible condition could rear it's head when the rat [and those from their line] are around 2yrs old, which is way past the breeding age. You wouldn't have known about it, so you bred them and now you have 20+ rats that may or may not suddenly develop this condition. The same reasons you shouldn't breed pet store rats. There's too many ways it can go very wrong.
When you take in a rescue, you're promising them a better life. Something more than what they were being given before. In many cases, rescues are coming from very horrible situations where they weren't fed, their cages weren't cleaned, and things like that. It's not fair to make a promise you don't intend to keep, and are instead going to make them breed. Breeding takes alot out of an animal, and I personally think it's cruel and almost evil to take the little bit they have left of themselves. It's horribly cruel to have a rescue rat finally trust you, to know you're not going to hurt it and that you're going to take care of it, only to sit back and make them breed lines that will never be any good. It's not fair to crush something's spirit just for a bit of money.
Rescue rats have no background history in most cases and are generally pet store stock. You have absolutely nothing to go on for their genetic background in just about every case. You can't breed animals that you don't know anything about. One of the parents could be a carrier for high white [megacolon], they could have a genetic fault that makes them sickly or aggressive. That rat's littermates may have already died by 7 months from heart failure or organ failure, and you have no idea. You just don't know. You have every chance of having to sit by and watch an entire litter die, watch the mother develop an illness and die while still nursing, lose the litter to failure to thrive. Even if the first litter did okay, it might happen in the second litter, in the third, or somewhere else down the line. Some horrible condition could rear it's head when the rat [and those from their line] are around 2yrs old, which is way past the breeding age. You wouldn't have known about it, so you bred them and now you have 20+ rats that may or may not suddenly develop this condition. The same reasons you shouldn't breed pet store rats. There's too many ways it can go very wrong.
When you take in a rescue, you're promising them a better life. Something more than what they were being given before. In many cases, rescues are coming from very horrible situations where they weren't fed, their cages weren't cleaned, and things like that. It's not fair to make a promise you don't intend to keep, and are instead going to make them breed. Breeding takes alot out of an animal, and I personally think it's cruel and almost evil to take the little bit they have left of themselves. It's horribly cruel to have a rescue rat finally trust you, to know you're not going to hurt it and that you're going to take care of it, only to sit back and make them breed lines that will never be any good. It's not fair to crush something's spirit just for a bit of money.
Shelley
Well-Known Member
I compare it the same way as with any rescue animal. You don't walk into a shelter, pick out a dog, bring it home only with the intention to breed. Thank god that they spay/neuter before adoption most of the time. Just because rodents aren't spayed/neutered on adoption, the contract is the same. When adopting, you are supposed to be in an agreement that you will under no circumstances breed the animal intentionally. Your taking in this animal to provide them a better life. Your taking them in to provide love, and care, medical attention when they need it. I can not understand how rats are any different than any other animal. Other points have already been touched on, but this is how I feel.
Bati
Well-Known Member
javakittie said:
How many litters is ok? for a girl I'd say 2 is max
anything coming after 2 years I'd say was ok, as I don't expect much more than 2 year-lifespan
It's kind of sad, most of the reasons you mention about not knowing the background goes for pedigree-rats too, most of mine only have back to grandparents, and in the pedigree might be petshop-animals.
I don't want to breed rescue-girls exactly because they come to relax and enjoy, but I'll admit that a sweet boy around 14 months would be ok (on rescues I tend to get 3 brothers every time)
If I (or anyone around here) were to breed only known pedigree rats I don't think much would be done, but I see your points (oh and thankyou for not getting too upset with all my kind of strange questions)
lilspaz68
Well-Known Member
Do you keep detailed records of all the rats you breed, any illnesses or condtions and age and reason of deaths? You would need to keep in contact with ALL your adopters and they would have to let you know about any illnesses etc as well.
Using your rats where you know a little more than the others, and keeping those records is the only way to go. Sharing bucks that have a bit more of a known background along with your known females, but being prepared to drop a line if something bad keeps showing up in it...this is what you have to be prepared to do.
You are making a stew with somewhat familiar ingredients...when you add a rescue breeding into the stew, you end up with unfamiliar ingredients that might ruin the stew itself completely.
I think javakittie meant future litters from that line not from the same girl.
Using your rats where you know a little more than the others, and keeping those records is the only way to go. Sharing bucks that have a bit more of a known background along with your known females, but being prepared to drop a line if something bad keeps showing up in it...this is what you have to be prepared to do.
You are making a stew with somewhat familiar ingredients...when you add a rescue breeding into the stew, you end up with unfamiliar ingredients that might ruin the stew itself completely.
I think javakittie meant future litters from that line not from the same girl.
Lise
Well-Known Member
Bati said:
You should be breeding to try to get rats to stay healthy to 3, or heck dream big, 4 years old.
When I got my breeder rats you can bet I want them to live far more than 2 years.
Many breeders in North America are working hard to change this mentality. For example a rat get gets a tumor is not okay, whether it gets a tumor at 1 year or 2 1/2 years.... having tumors in your lines is not okay.
I meant anyone bred from those lines.. A female should never be bred more than twice, and never before 8mo or after 1 year.
Say you breed Rescue Male 1, who's line secretly holds heart failure and tumors showing in rats around 1yr old. The litter coming from that pairing is bred, carrying the same problems, but they're all bred before 1yr old so the problem isn't noticed until after that. If the litters produced are average [we'll say 12 for each litter] there are now 144 rats in the world who are going to die slow, painful deaths. Not every case will be discovered before it gets too serious to deal with.
At no point should it come into your head that 'Oh, they're only going to live to be 2 anyhow.' You should be expecting alot more from your rats. Tumors are not okay. 2 years old is not okay. Chronic resp infections are not okay. The breeders here are trying desperately to make a better standard for the species in general. Why bother with a breeder when you can go to a pet store and get the exact same thing? That's the whole point of being a breeder! Making a better animal. There are already some sweet rats in pet stores across the world, but it doesn't matter in the end because they'll die of some horrible infection by a year and a half, 2yrs if you're lucky.
I do not feel it's ever okay to introduce pet store lines into supposedly pedigree lines. There are too many things that may not show up until a much later date. If the rats available in your area are all mixed with pet store rats, then why not look into having true pedigree rats shipped to you?
And what exactly do you mean, that if you bred only known pedigree rats that nothing much would be done? Do you mean not very many litters would be bred? That shouldn't be the point, either, and should be perfectly okay. Some of the breeders I know only have 6 litters a year, because they're making sure they really are improving the line. No one serious about it gets into breeding for the money. There is almost no money in it after all the costs are factored in. People should want to breed animals to make a better pet, worth all the hard work you've put into it.
Say you breed Rescue Male 1, who's line secretly holds heart failure and tumors showing in rats around 1yr old. The litter coming from that pairing is bred, carrying the same problems, but they're all bred before 1yr old so the problem isn't noticed until after that. If the litters produced are average [we'll say 12 for each litter] there are now 144 rats in the world who are going to die slow, painful deaths. Not every case will be discovered before it gets too serious to deal with.
At no point should it come into your head that 'Oh, they're only going to live to be 2 anyhow.' You should be expecting alot more from your rats. Tumors are not okay. 2 years old is not okay. Chronic resp infections are not okay. The breeders here are trying desperately to make a better standard for the species in general. Why bother with a breeder when you can go to a pet store and get the exact same thing? That's the whole point of being a breeder! Making a better animal. There are already some sweet rats in pet stores across the world, but it doesn't matter in the end because they'll die of some horrible infection by a year and a half, 2yrs if you're lucky.
I do not feel it's ever okay to introduce pet store lines into supposedly pedigree lines. There are too many things that may not show up until a much later date. If the rats available in your area are all mixed with pet store rats, then why not look into having true pedigree rats shipped to you?
And what exactly do you mean, that if you bred only known pedigree rats that nothing much would be done? Do you mean not very many litters would be bred? That shouldn't be the point, either, and should be perfectly okay. Some of the breeders I know only have 6 litters a year, because they're making sure they really are improving the line. No one serious about it gets into breeding for the money. There is almost no money in it after all the costs are factored in. People should want to breed animals to make a better pet, worth all the hard work you've put into it.
SQ
Senior Member - Vegan for the animals
Just wanted to say that most of my rats/rescues that originally came from pet stores or their parents did, have lived over 2 years or even 2.5 years. I would expect breeder rats to do much better than that.
Rescue rats should never be bred. From my experience, they usually have serious genetic health problems. Around here we see a lot of chf, tumors, pt, and chronic respir. problems.
As other people have said, only rats from known healthy lines that are relatively tumor, etc. free and myco resistant should be bred.
If breeders are not trying to create healthier rats, what is the point?
Rescue rats should never be bred. From my experience, they usually have serious genetic health problems. Around here we see a lot of chf, tumors, pt, and chronic respir. problems.
As other people have said, only rats from known healthy lines that are relatively tumor, etc. free and myco resistant should be bred.
If breeders are not trying to create healthier rats, what is the point?
Bati
Well-Known Member
javakittie said:
Around here we say first litter at age 6-10 months, and second litter before 18 months. And yes I do keep records of my babies in good detail, I think most breeders do that more or less. I have to admit that my rats dye from tumors (around half have died from that) and as long as it's after 24 months I'm kind of happy. Making them live longer than 2-2½ years is difficult when the 'breeding-material' is not better than it is at the moment (hoping to travel far to get some of those long-lived ones).
Still - I agree on the no breeding on females to not stress them, but the boys, I don't think it's much worse than a pedigree-boy with suspectable things in the family (which they all have here)
And anoyingly - my rescues are the longest-living which is kind of upsetting, my longest was Foster nearly 2½, when he was 3 weeks his mum got another litter, when he was 5 weeks I got him at weight 47 grams, everything said this boy had a rough start on life and still he made it to a record.
mamarat2
Well-Known Member
Why in the world would you say that you would breed a rescue boy but not a rescue girl? You still do not know their pedigree or history. Maybe the boys' mom had birthing issues or his brothers and sisters (god forbid) died from megacolon. He still carries the genetics for all of this!!!!
A female should NOT be bred after they are 2 years old, no matter what. Even if a female has been bred and given birth by 6-8 months old, I beleive there is still the possibility for their pelvic bones to fuse as they get older. Not only that, but for "most" rats, 2 yrs old is a SENIOR rat. We don't see people in the 70's having kids!
Rescue animals of any breed or species have been through enough in their lives, there is no need to go about breeding them. Especially when you do not know the outcome.
I honestly don't know why anyone would ever consider such a thing.
A female should NOT be bred after they are 2 years old, no matter what. Even if a female has been bred and given birth by 6-8 months old, I beleive there is still the possibility for their pelvic bones to fuse as they get older. Not only that, but for "most" rats, 2 yrs old is a SENIOR rat. We don't see people in the 70's having kids!
Rescue animals of any breed or species have been through enough in their lives, there is no need to go about breeding them. Especially when you do not know the outcome.
I honestly don't know why anyone would ever consider such a thing.
Bati
Well-Known Member
Because I don't see much diference in breading an unknown background to breeding one with a known background, when all known backgrounds have tumors, temper-problems or something else no good (around here that is)
Wouldn't a girl, as I think they deserve some peace and relaxing
Wouldn't a girl, as I think they deserve some peace and relaxing
Bati
Well-Known Member
mamarat2 said:
If I wrote anything about breeding after 1½ years for a female it was a mistake - but the thing about the bones fusing is looking like it's not true (it's true about gunea-pigs, but not rats) as far as the newest things written (not that new equals more true anyhow)
jorats
Loving rats since 2002.
Bati is right, pelvis bone don't fuse in rats. But 18+ is senior in rats.
Bati, you are thinking it's ok with males because they don't need to go through much stress with their role in the breeding process. I can understand your thinking there.
Also, you are saying that no matter what, rescue or breeder, all rats in your area all seem to have tumours, myco, aggression so it's not really questionable because all your rats there are not in the best of health. Is that right?
I can sure understand your dilemma, especially if you have a rescue male that is living an old age and staying healthy.
But, I wonder why are you (all breeders in your area) continuing to breed rats that are unhealthy? I don't think I would ever breed rats if I knew they would be sick no matter what I do or what I bred.
I can sure understand your dilemma.
Bati, you are thinking it's ok with males because they don't need to go through much stress with their role in the breeding process. I can understand your thinking there.
Also, you are saying that no matter what, rescue or breeder, all rats in your area all seem to have tumours, myco, aggression so it's not really questionable because all your rats there are not in the best of health. Is that right?
I can sure understand your dilemma, especially if you have a rescue male that is living an old age and staying healthy.
But, I wonder why are you (all breeders in your area) continuing to breed rats that are unhealthy? I don't think I would ever breed rats if I knew they would be sick no matter what I do or what I bred.
I can sure understand your dilemma.
Bati said:
The idea, though Bati, is to breed the known rats to a point where tumors are less likely to pop up. To breed the known well tempered rats so that the temperament is improved. By constantly adding in unknown bits from rescues and such, you'll never improve the lines at all. You must have a good, solid foundation to work from in order to improve upon it. You can't get that with rescues or unknown backgrounds, because the foundation is constantly falling out from under you with severe health issues, temperament problems, etc... With the known rats, you can consistently check the genetics against what you're goals are. Their's doesn't often change, and when something pops up you can go back and see where exactly it happened so you don't make the same mistake again.
Lise
Well-Known Member
Bati, if you don't currently have healthy lines to work with have you looked at shipping in rats from England? They have long established healthy lines over there. Perhaps you could get in touch with a good breeder there.
People have shipped rats from England to the USA, so shipping just up to Scandinavia should be more than do-able.
People have shipped rats from England to the USA, so shipping just up to Scandinavia should be more than do-able.
Bati
Well-Known Member
It's difficult to get connections with foreingers, as you may have seen I ask completely stupid questions sometimes and the 'rules' here are sometimes very opposing to your rules, so I do understand when breeders say no to sending their babies to me. Have had one from Netherlands and some with British ancestors, but to be honest, they were NOT good enough for any breeding. But I am thinking of going to US to get some (IF husband gets that well paid job and IF I get in touch with some good breeders and if if if :wink - it might be a long project as no good breeder should say 'oh yes stranger from far away, let me just give you the best from my litters for you to breed'
- it might be a long project as no good breeder should say 'oh yes stranger from far away, let me just give you the best from my litters for you to breed'When people talk about wanting to start breeding, the first thing people do is suggest they get in touch with a reputable breeder. They can get information directly from someone who's doing it, and possibly get mentored. The breeder they contact can give them all sorts of help.
Perhaps if you talked with a good breeder, developed a working relationship with them, people wouldn't be so hesitant to send you the babies. You could also get first hand accounts of what being a good breeder takes. There are good lines in the UK, and perhaps if you could guarantee them that you want to have better practices than what's commonly accepted, they'll be more willing to help you.
Simply put, a good breeder here in the states isn't going to be any more likely to give you their babies as the UK breeders are. They want to know who you are, what you do, what you intend to do with their good name, etc...
Perhaps if you talked with a good breeder, developed a working relationship with them, people wouldn't be so hesitant to send you the babies. You could also get first hand accounts of what being a good breeder takes. There are good lines in the UK, and perhaps if you could guarantee them that you want to have better practices than what's commonly accepted, they'll be more willing to help you.
Simply put, a good breeder here in the states isn't going to be any more likely to give you their babies as the UK breeders are. They want to know who you are, what you do, what you intend to do with their good name, etc...
chiahua
Member
Oh please do not breed rescue or pet store rats. Coincidentally I just had a long conversation about this with a friend who runs a rescue. I almost adopted baby rats from a "breeder" who we later found out they are just breeding from pet store rats and we were quite upset about this. I've had rats from the pet store before I learned about all this rat business and everyone of them got sick and die before reaching 2 yr old. It's cruel to the rats and heartbreaking to the rat owners. I know rats don't live very long anyway but I really would do anything I could to help them be healthier and live longer. I am not a breeder myself but we all agree that careful breeding plans can eliminate a lot of health issues.
